From email@example.com Fri Jul 5 15:14:50 PDT 1996 Article: 48465 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!mhv.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Mark Van Alstine) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 09:08:11 -0700 Organization: rbi software systems Lines: 315 Message-ID:
References: <email@example.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5 In article <firstname.lastname@example.org>, email@example.com (tom moran) wrote: > [Repost] Correction: [Compost]. Tommy has obviously been digging through his garbage again to find something to cover for his intellectual paucity. Too bad he doesn't realize his article is just as rancid as it was the the first time he posted it! [snip] > ...The 300,000 tons of chemical weapons now submerged in the Baltic Sea's greenish brown waters.... Hmmm. That's sounds like it's bigger than the entire U.S. chemical weapons arsenal produced during WWII. (i.e. Mustard gas, phosgene, lewisite, white phosphorous, carbonyl iron, and tear gas.) [Herr Moran's gratuitous and habitual insults against the Allies snipped] > One wonders why the Nazis would have resorted to using Zyclone B pellets > to exterminate people, in lieu of poison gases they surely had? Well, Tommy, do you know exactly what kinds chemical agents the Nazis had stockpiled? Perhaps nerve, mustard, and blood agents? The Nazis had three nerve agents: Sarin, Tabun, and Soman. They were developed by prior to WWII. The first agent developed, and the easiest to manufacture, was Tabun. 13,228 tons (12,000 tonnes) of Tabun were produced >from 1942-1945. The production of Sarin was low, being produced in a pilot plant, and only about 0.55 ton (0.5 tonne) was made by 1945. Evidently, Soman, was not produced in any quantity. (Well, that leaves only 286,771.45 tons to go....) Sarin, Soman, and Tabun, in their pure states, are colourless and oderless liquids. Their volatility varies widely. Sarin is an easily volatile liquid (comparable to water), and is mainly absorbed via the respiratory system. The volatilities of Soman and Tabun are less that of of Sarin. Sarin is also very soluble in water whereas Soman and Tabun are much less soluble. The toxic effect depends both on the concentration of nerve agent in the air inhaled (C) and the time of exposure (t). In extremely high concentrations there is a simple relationship, C t, which gives a certain toxic effect (e.g. death.) Inhalation of Sarin vapor with a concentration of 100 mg/m3 for one minute gives the same result as inhalation of 50 mg/m3 for two minutes. However, at low concentrations this relationship does not apply- the human body is capable, to some degree, of detoxification. In order to obtain a similar effect, it is then necessary to have a longer period of exposure. The values given in the table below for toxicity of nerve agents apply to high concentrations: LCt50 LD50 Inhalation Skin mg.min/m3 mg/individual __________________________________________________________________________ Tabun (O-ethyl dimethylamidophosphorylcyanide) 200 4,000 Sarin (isopropyl methylphosphonofluoridate) 100 1,700 Soman (pinacolyl methylphosphonofluoridate) 100 300 The above values are estimates of the doses which have lethal effects on humans. LD50 is the the dosage at which 50% of the exposed population will die. A different metric is used for inhalation: the product of the concentration (C) and the length of exposure (t). Again, L stands for lethal and 50 for 50%. The toxicity sequence is the same for the two routes of exposure but the differences in amounts are much greater in skin exposure. This difference is caused by the more volatile nerve agents evaporating from naked skin before being absorbed. If the evaporation is prevented, e.g., by tightly fitting clothing, the difference will be less. In comparison, the concentration and effects when inhaling hydrogen cyanide are as follows: Concentration (mg/m3) Effect 300 Immediately lethal 200 Lethal after 10 minutes 150 Lethal after 30 minutes 120-150 Highly dangerous (fatal) after 30-60 min. 50-60 Endurable for 20 min. - 1 h without effect 20-40 Light symptoms after several hours Sarin, Soman, and Tabun can only be manufactured in laboratories, though very sophisticated equipment is not needed (it has similar a manufacturing process as insecticides). They are, however, extremely dangerous to manufacture and handle. Property Tabun Sarin Soman Molecular weight 162.1 140.1 182.2 Density g/cm3 25 C 1.073 1.089 1.022 Boiling-point C 247 147 167 Melting-point C -50 -56 -42 Vapour pres. mm Hg 25 C 0.07 2.9 0.3 Volatility mg/m3 25 C 600 17,000 3,900 Solubility in water % 25 C 10 100 2 Sarin, Soman, and Tabun can be washed and rinsed away or removed by heat treatment. Water, with or without detergents, as well as organic solvents such as fuel and paraffin. Emulsified solvents in water can be used to dissolve and wash them from equipment. When decontaminating by washing, care must be taken in regards to the nerve agent remaining toxic in the decontaminant unless the nerve agent has first been destroyed. When washing with water - especially with hot water and detergent -Sarin, Soman, and Tabun will be decomposed to some extent through hydrolysis. Detergents containing perborates are particularly effective in destroying them. Without an addition of perborates in the detergent, they may still remain toxic unless the pH of the water is sufficiently high. The most important decontamination measure naturally concerns the individual. If it is suspected that skin has been exposed to nerve agents, especially Tabun, then it must be decontaminated immediately (within a minute). The most important factor is time; the method used in decontamination is of minor importance. Good results can be obtained with such widely differing means as talcum powder, flour, soap and water, or special decontaminants. In complete decontamination, clothes and personal equipment must also be decontaminated. If clothing was been exposed to nerve agent contamination, especially the more persistant Tabun, then extreme care must be taken when undressing to avoid transferring the nerve agent to the skin. Immediate decontamination of personal and small equipment is generally done with individual decontaminants. However, these substances are only capable of decontaminating nerve agents on the surface. The decontamination is mainly to prevent further penetration into the material and to decrease the risks of handling the equipment. The nerve agents Sarin, Tabun, and Soman easily penetrate different materials and into crevasses and will be difficult to reach by methods only designed for superficial decontamination. When a nerve agent has penetrated into the surface, it is necessary to use some kind of deep-penetrating method in decontamination. If such a method cannot be used, then it must be realised that the equipment cannot be used for a long period. Depending on the type of nerve agent used and prevailing temperature and precipitation (water solubility), the "self-decontamination" may take many days or even weeks. The absorption into the surface and natural chemical degradation are important factors influencing the self-econtamination period. Example of self-decontamination times for contamination on metal surfaces and on a typical (non-resistant) paint at +15 C, 4 m/s and 2 mm large droplets: Substance No contact risk Liquid Gas ______________________________________________ Untreated metal surface Soman < 5 h < 5 h Painted metal surface Soman 3-4 h 1,5 days Examples of persistence times for ground contamination. There is frequently a residue of nerve agents which have penetrated the soil after the above-mentioned periods. Residues have been found after three times longer than listed: Agent Persistance @ -10 C Persistance @ +15 C ________________________________________________________ Sarin 8 hours 30 min Soman 2 days 5 hours Tabun 4 days 1 day Cyanide 2 min 0 min As you can see, Tommy, nerve agents are very nasty. They are dangerous to handle, difficult to decontaminate, and they are persistant. Furthermore, a dosage of 300 mg/m HCN inhaled is quite lethal and is easily comparable to the effectiveness of nerve agents. Using persistant nerve agents in an enclosed space such as a gas chamber and requiring people to dispose of the contaminated bodies would pose a lot of complications and require extensive chemical protection and decontamination resources. Not to mention that transporting nerve agents to and handling them at a camp like Auschwitz would pose a significant risk of accidental exposure to the SS and the slave laborers there. The other agents the Nazis had stockpiled were mustard agents. The effects of mustard agents are delayed, so the first symptoms do not occur until between 2-24 hours after initial exposure. Mustard agents are liquid at room teperature, with low volatility, so they don't turn into a gas (and therefore get inhaled) as easily as HCN does. Mustard agents are also not very water soluable, which means clean-up would be difficult and time consuming. Once in solution, the dissolved mustard agent will decomposes by hydrolysis. Bleaching-powder and chloramines, however, will react with (dissolved) mustard agents and speed up this process. (One wonder's if this means there is mustard gas on the Baltic sea bed, and that even if it leaked, would pose a real hazard and not simply decompose?) Immediate fatality from acute exposure to mustard agent was actually low in WWI. The dose needed to directly kill a person via inhalation is about 50 times larger than the dose giving acute mortality upon poisoning with the nerve agent Soman. People who die from exposure to mustard agents typically do so after a few days or even weeks later. This, of course, would throw a wrench into the Nazis' extermination process if, after gassing prisoners, it took several days or weeks for them to die. (A quite agonizing death, btw). Death by mustard agents is neither fast nor painless. Nor is it nearly as certain as death by HCN. Nor are mustard agents as "clean" as HCN is, requiring more time and resource for decontamination efforts. Physical Properties of Mustard Agent Molecular weight, Dalton 159.1 Density, g/cm3 1.27 Boiling-point C 217 Melting-point C 14 Vapour pressure mm Hg at 25 C 0.11 Volatility mg/m3 at 25 C 900 Solubility in water % at 20 C 0.06 Toxicity of Mustard Agent Inhalation: LCt50 1,500 mg*min/m3 Skin exposure: LCt50 10,000 mg*min/m3 Smallest blister-causing dose on skin: 0.02 mg Blood agents such as phosgene gas have similar properties to mustard agents. Phosgene is a colorless, fuming liquid below 47 degrees F (8.2 degrees C) and a colorless, nonflammable gas above 47 degrees F. It is shipped as a liquified, compressed gas. At high concentrations, its odor can be sharp and suffocating. Phosgene is hydrolyzed slowly by moisture to form hydrochloric acid and carbon dioxide. Inhalation is the major route of phosgene toxicity. Phosgene's odor provides sufficient warning of dangerous concentrations, but its irritating quality can be mild and delayed, which may allow persons to be exposed for a prolonged interval. Phosgene is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in poorly ventilated or enclosed spaces. When phosgene gas contacts moist or wet skin, it can cause irritation and erythema. High airborne concentrations also can cause corneal inflammation and opacification. Direct contact with liquid phosgene causes skin and eye burns. Because phosgene is poorly water soluble and hydrolysis tends to be slow, victims inhaling low concentrations of the gas experience no symptoms or only mild irritation of the upper airway. Lack of irritation allows victims to inhale the gas deeper into the lungs and for a prolonged period. Direct cytotoxicity leads to an increase in capillary permeability resulting in large shifts of body fluid with a resultant decrease in plasma volume. When phosgene hydrolyzes, it forms hydrochloric acid which causes epithelial damage and cellular necrosis in the bronchi and small bronchioles. After an asymptomatic interval of 30 minutes to a few hours, chest pain, bronchospasm, hypoventilation, and bradycardia can develop. A latency period of up to 24 hours may occur before profound damage manifests as dyspnea, hypoxemia, and severe transudative (noncarcliogenic) pulmonary edema. Hemolysis in pulmonary circulation can cause capillary plugging that leads to corpulmonale and death. Those in contact with phosgene vapor should wear a self-contained breathing apparatus. Chemical-protective clothing and gloves are required if contact with liquid phosgene or its concentrated vapor is possible or if they will be handling victims with phosgene-soaked clothing or skin. Immediately dangerous to life or health = 2 ppm Molecular weight = 98.9 daltons Boiling point (760 mm Hg) = 47 degrees F (8 degrees C) Vapor pressure (67.1 degrees F) = 1215 mm Hg Gas density = 3.4 (Air = 1) Slightly water-soluble Nonflammable All in all, nerve, mustard, or blood agents would have made a very poor means of mass killing in homicidal gas-chambers. Mustard agents were not nearly as effective as Zyklon-B (HCN) was in killing and would have posed a much more significant risk to the personnel running and serving the killing facilities. > Well we can only assume that Zyclone was used to kill typhoid > carrying parasites at the camps and this is why it was found there. No, Tommy, that is a absurd fantasy (and CONTINUED mispelling of Zyklon B!) of your construction. The fact is that Zyklon B was found to be the best agent for mass-killing available and Ho"ss chose to use it. The fact that it was _also_ used as a fumigant for pest-control is hardly suprising, since that was what Zyklon B was _origionally_ made and used for. That it was also a very effective and fast method for homicidal gasing was simply due to the fact that HCN kills by interferring with cellular metabolism. A cellular metabolism common to organisms like insects and mammals. > It was the only thing that could be pointed to identify as a source for the > gas story. Indeed Zyklon B was the only source for the homicidal agent that could be identified at Auschwitz. Tests of the remains of the homicidal gas chambers show evidence of HCN traces consistant with homicidal usage. Eyewitness testimonies clearly tell of Zyklon B being used to kill people in these homicidal gas chambers. DEGESCH invoices show that Zyklon B WITHOUT LACRYMAL was shipped from Dessua (one of two Zyklon plants) to Auschwitz. This last point is quite interesting in that ALL Zyklon B used in pest control application had a lacrymal added to it for safety reasons. The Zyklon B used for homicidal purposes did not. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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