Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Mark Van Alstine ) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: THE lie Message-ID:
References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <37499BD8.68D104A5@erols.com> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 617 Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:54:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 220.127.116.11 X-Complaints-To: firstname.lastname@example.org X-Trace: news.rdc1.sfba.home.com 927748479 18.104.22.168 (Wed, 26 May 1999 12:54:39 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:54:39 PDT Organization: @Home Network Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:474435 In article <email@example.com>, firstname.lastname@example.org (tom moran) wrote: > Mr.(bodies burn like wood) Morris says there "are dozens of aerial > photos of Birkenau": > > >Tom, it has already been pointed out to several times by several > >people that there are dozens of aerial photos of Birkenau and that > >there were more than five *missions* flown. > > > >If you can't even correct that basic fact, why should anyone believe > >that you are interested in discussing history, and consequently, why > >should believe that you are interested in the truth rather than in > >Jew-hating propaganda? > > > [[ Does he have anything, can he show anything, whatsoever to show his > statement "it has already been pointed out to several times by several > people" is not a just something he is making up like his 'bodies burn > like wood' hypothesis? Subject: Re: U.S. held photos - Arch enemy of the lie Date: 1999/04/22 Author: Mark Van Alstine < > > Moran had said: > >> There are about 5 aerial reconnaissance photos of Birkenau all > >>taken by the Allies at a time when the Holocaust 'facts' have it the > >>camp was engaged in the maximum extermination process. > > Morris says: > >Nonsense. There were five missions flown in which dozens of photos > >were taken. That's how aerial reconnaissance works: you fly over and > >the camera takes a series of pictures. There were, by my count, eleven Allied reconnaissance missions over the Auschwitz region: April 4,1944 May 31, 1944 June 26, 1944 August 25, 1944 September 13, 1944 September 16, 1944 September 18, 1944 November 29,1944 December 21, 1944 January 14, 1945 Feburary 19,1945 Cf. Gilbert, _Auschwitz and the Allies_, pp.190-191, 216, 222, 249-250, 307-310, 317-318, 330-335; Wyman, _Abandonment of the Jews_, pp.298,302-303; Rust, _Fifteenth Air Force Story_, pp.32,39. > >John Ball knows this, but he has seen fit to dupe you into believing > >that there are only five photos. Why this is important will become > >apparent below. > > [[ Who said there were only five photos? Moron: "There are about 5 aerial reconnaissance photos of Birkenau all taken by the Allies...." In fact, there well well over five air photos taken that show Birkenau -and not all where taken by the Allies. > If there is so much more, why > haven't the Holocaust community, who has such a documented record of > obsession, printed up their own book of aerial photos? Because there > instant death for Holocaust credibility.]] > > Moran had said: > >> Poetically, the photos, held by the CIA since the end of World > >>War II, fifty years ago, were not released until around 1979 in the > >>form of a report, "The Holocaust Revisited" with the photos having > >>been obviously retouched. > > Morris claims: > >First of all, the photos were not previously released because they > >were unknown. The mission was flown to take reconnaissance pictures of > >the Buna plant at nearby Monowitz. > > [[ Mr.Morris says "The mission was flown to take reconnaissance > pictures of the Buna plant at nearby Monowitz." Will he be coming back > to tell us all about it. To show it's not something he is just making > up? ]] Since Moron is _so_ fond of Ball's _Air Photo Evidence_, all he need to is look at pp.23,26,30, and 31, for example, to see that the Allies did indeed photogrph The IG Farben Buna plant at Monowitz. Morever, reference to the bombings of the I.G. Farben "Buna Werkes" plant at Monowitz can be found in Martin Gilbert's _Auschwitz and the Allies_: The first bombing raid on the synthetic oil and rubber plant at Monowitz took place on August 20 . The raid was flown by the 15th United States Air Force, from their base at Foggia, in southern Italy. During the raid, which began at 10.32 in the evening, and lasted for twenty-eight minuted, 127 Flying Fortresss dropped a total of 1,336 five hundred pound high explosive bombs, from an altitude of between 26,00 and 29,000 feet. Only one of the bombers was shot down. Against nineteen German fighters that rose to intercept them, the Americans had been able to send an escort of o hundred Mustangs. The intelligence reports on the Monowitz raid of August 20 were completed three days later, following a scrutiny of aerial photographs taken immediately after the raid. The 'main weight of the attack' it appeared, had fallen on the central and eastern part of the wirks, 'where there is very considerable damage to installations and buildings'. Owing to the dispersed nature of the various plants, however, 'many hits have been scored on the open ground between buildings and damage is therefore not so spectacular as it might otherwise be'. It seemed 'probable' that the blast from these hits on open ground 'must have caused a considerable amount of damage to installations' not visible on the photographs. Several buildings in the synthetic oil plant were seen to have been 'severely damaged', and there was 'probably also some blast damage' to one of the three active hydrogenation stalls. Heavy damage was recorded by the aerial photgraphs in the aluminum production plant, as well as 'considerable damage to stores, buildings, contractors sheds and offices, and to huts and buildings in the various labour camps adjoining the works'. [...] The sole purpose of the photographic reconnaissance over Auschwitz on August 25 was to look yet again at the damage done during the raid of Agust 20, and to see what firther repairs were being made. Once more, both Auschwitz I and Birkenau appear in part five of the photographs. But the intelligence assessment made no reference to these exposures, nor did it have any reason to do so. Over Monowitz it noted, 'some slight clearence and repairs seem', but as to the six 'primary objectives', at the first, the boiler house and generator hall, 'no damage seen'; at the second, the water gas plant, 'no damage seen'; at the third, the H2S removal plant, 'no damage seen'; at the Co2 and CO removal plant 'small installation partly wrecked'; at the gas conversion plant, and at the injector houses, 'no damage seen'. This was a dissapointing result. 'The damage received,' the report concluded, 'is not sufficient to interfere seriously with synthetic fuel production, and should no tgreatly delay complettion of this part of the plant.' A photograph attached to this report showed one of the aerial shots taken over Monowitz on August 25. In it, hundreds of bomb craters are clearly visible. The photograph was accompanied by a plan on which all damaged and destroyed buildings were marked. Also identified were 151 different buildings, including a group of buildings at the southern edge of Monowitz listed as 'Concentration Camp'. This was, in fact, the slave labour camp at Auschwitz III, with 30,000 Jews who had been brought from Birkenau. But this was not known to the interpreters. More than seventy huts and other buildings were visible, but not specifically identified, inside this particular complex, rcognized as a camp, but not commented on further in any way. [...] The Monowitz raid of September 13  had lasted for only thirteen minutes, from 11.17 a.m. to 11.30 a.m. Ninety-six heavy bombers took part, dropping just over a thousand 500-pound bombs from 24,000 feet. Like the raid of Agust 20, this one was a part of the continuing Allied efforts to destroy Germany's synthetic oil production. According to the interpretation of aeiral photogrpahs taken during the raid, 'only slight damage' was done, mostly to the 'small stores, buildings and labour barracks'. Two buildings in the 'concentration camp' were seen also to have been hit. Normal motor transport movement was seen. So too were repairs to 'previous damage' in the raid of August 20, 'and new construction continuing'. As part of the air attack on September 13, yet another photographic mission had flown over both Auschwitz and Birkenau, as well as over Monowitz. Its camera even recorded, twice, the falling bombs. Also visible in the Birkenau photographs of September 13 are the gas chambers and Crematoria IV and V: the latter being hidden from the inmates of the camp by the birchwood. [...] On September 16 two pilots from 680 Squadron, FLight Lieutenant Tasker and Flight Sergeant Murphy, left Foggia to photgraphs eight of the recently attacked oil plants and stores. Their sortie took them over Ravenna, Bologna, Auschwitz, Vrutky, Diosgyor and Vienna. Passing over Monowitz at five minutes after midday, the photographs which they took covered only the western third of the plant, the section least affected by the attack three days before. But they did show that the cooling tower serving the main distallation had been destroyed, and a purified gas-holder burned out. Two days later, On September 18, a second reconnaissance sortie by Major Allam and Lieutenant Roth of 683 Squadron was more successful in photgraphing the areas hit during the September 13 air-raid on Monowitz, but noted that owiong to the dispersed nature of the buildings, 'fresh damage is not as heavy as it might otherwise be'. In addition to the damage noted by the camera two days before, the new photographs, when analysed, showed slight blast damge to the water gas plant, but found no other primary or even secondary objectives to have been 'visibly affected'. There was however some clear 'fresh' damage to stores, workshops, an 'in the labour camps to the south and south-west of the plant'. The camera also photgraphed clearance of bomb damage and roof repairs, 'in progress around several points of earlier damage'. Further photographs were taken over Monowitz on September 18 by 60 Squadron. Air intelligence confirmed the findings of Allam and Roth, but noted that there were 'no signs' of operative activity in any part of the plant, apart from a wisp of smoke or steam issuing from the southern end of the blower-house for the water gas plant', and the presence of gas in five gas holders. The only other activity recorded was 'the usual movement' of trucks, personnel, 'cranes and hopper wagons and presence of rail cars'. The fresh damage, the intelligence analysts concluded, 'is not likely greatly to delay the work of completion of the synthetic oil plant'. [...] On November 11  the Allied Combined Intelligence Unit prepred a Top Secret report on the principal sites of German synthetic oil production. At Auschwitz-Monowitz, it was clear, 'progress has been made with construction' of the Buna plant. Two of the lime kilns 'are now complete and the third in nearing completion'. As a result of the bombing attacks on August 20 and September 13, it now appeared, there had been 'a cessation of production for two or three months', and the production recently restored was at only two-thirds its earlier capacity. The probable annual production of synthetic oil was estimated at between 24,000 and 33,000 tons. In the intelligence report that followed the reconnaissance, no mention is made of the crematoria area at Birkenau. But for the first time there is a direct reference to the number and nature of the trains in the Auschwitz-Birkenau 'marshalling yard'. Although the photographs themselves were of 'dark quality', they revealed, in the 'North Yard', approximately 220 to 240 'mixed wagons', five locomotives 'in steam', and two other locomotives, while in the 'South Yard' the the Allied analysts noted 160 160 mixed wagons, one locomotive 'in steam', and twenty-three box cars on the railway sidings 'in industrial plant West of South Yards', as well as two locomotives 'in steam in an unidentified area' to the southwest. It is clear from this analysis that nothing was known by those who made it of the purpose or role of Birkenau and its sidings. In the same report, the scrutiny of Monowitz was as detailed, and specific as always. SMoke and steam issuing from several smoke stacks and installations indicated 'the plant to be active'. Five small work trains, two small locomotives, and several lorries were seen 'moving in the plant area'. In addition the report notred that 'numerous personnel can also be seen moving about', that further repairs had been carried out to damaged installations, and that 'new construction' had continued/ Some thirty railway wagons were seen on the Monowits sidings, and approximately a hundred wagons 'on the railway sidings east of the plant area'. >From this it was clear that Monowitz was still operational, and on December 18 the Allied bomber attacked again, some bombs hitting the plant, and others the labour camp, the latter to such an extent that the first intelligence revealed that five huts had 'suffered partial destruction from direct hits'. Bit there was also wastage, a cluster of twelve bombs having fallen in the 'open area'. A second intelligence report five days after the raid was to reveal 'particularly heavy damage' to the injector house, compressor house and north workshop, but at the same time reported substantial 'repairs and construction' in the distallation plant, cooling plant, lime kiln, and railway shed. In addition, the 'concentration camp', that is to say, Monowitz's own slave labour camp, 'three heavily damaged buildings have been repaired'. Source: Gilbert, _Auschwitz and the Allies_, pp.307-308, 310, 317-318, 330-332. > Morris continued: > >Secondly, Ball has produced no credible eveidence at all of tampering. > > Moran had said: > >> The tamperings include penciled in > >>introduction ports which Holocaust 'facts' have at about 1 x 1 foot > >>wide and 3 feet high and penciled in formations of prisoners. > > [[ The tamperings stand out like a sore thumb. In regard to Ball's accusations of "tampering" with the air photos of Auschwitz, according to Michael Shermer: Thanks to Dr. Nevin Bryant, supervisor of cartographic applications and image processing applications at Caltech/NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, I was able to get the CIA photographs properly analyzed by people who know what they are looking at from the air. Nevin and I analyzed the photographs using digital enhancements techniques not available to the CIA in 1979. We were able to prove that the photographs had not been tampered with, and we indeed found evidence of extermination activity. The aeirial photographs were shot in sequence as the plane flew over the camp (on a bombing run toward its ultimate target - the IG Farben Industrial works). Since the photographs of the camp were taken a few seconds apart, stereoscopic viewing of two consecutive photographs show movement of people and vehicles and provides better depth perception. The airiel photograph in figure 23  shows the distinctive features of Krema II. Note the long shadow from the crematorium chimney and, on the roof of the adjacent gas chamber at right angles to the crematorium building, note the four staggered shadows. Ball claims these shadows were drawn in, but four small structures that match the shadows are visible on the roof of the gas chamber in figure 24  taken by an SS photographer of the back of Krema II (if you look directly below the chimney of krema II, you will see two sides of the rectangular underground gas chamber structure protruding a few feet above the ground.) The photgraphic evidence converges quite nicely with eyewitness accounts describing SS men pouring Zyklon-B pellets through the opening in the roof of the gas chamber. the aerial photograph in figure 25  shows a group of prisoners being marched to Krema V for gassing. The gas chamber is at the end of the building, and the crematorium has double chimneys. From the camp's daily logs, it is clear that these are Hungarian Jews from an RSHA transport, some of whom where selected for work and the rest sent for extermination. (Additional photographs and detailed discussion appear in Shermer and Grobman 1977.) Source: Shermer, _Why People Believe Weird Things: pseudoscience, superstition, and other confusions of our time_, pp.233-234,235. 1. KL Au II, August 25, 1944, RG 373 Can F 5367. (Probably exposures 3185, 3186.) 2. PMO neg no. 20995/494, Kamman series. (Circa February 9-11, 1943). See: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-commentary http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns.jpg http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail.jpg http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/photos.01 3. KL Au II, May 31, 1944, RG 373 Can D 1508. (Probably exposures 3055 and ?) > Instead of going over it again I could just bring over the exchange > we had on it before. The discussion about angles of the shadows of alleged > introduction posts not corresponding with any other shadow angles, Well, Moron, I printed out the image of Krema III and then measure the angles. By bi-secting the Krema verically along the smokestack and then extending the line of the chimney's shadow so that it intersects it. I called the top of the verticle axis,that bisects the Krema, 0 degrees and swept the angle clockwise (it makes mesuring with a protractor easier this way). I got an angle 133 and 132.5 degrees for the two edges of the chimney's shadow. Now, the vents are a bit harder. Calling the vent closest to the Krema vent 1 and the furthest vent 4, I can only see discernable "shadow" edges on vents 1, 3, and 4. Extending the line for the edges of the vents' "shadows" I get an angles of 132 and 132 degrees for vent 1; 132 and 132 degrees for vent 3; and 133 and 133 degrees for vent 4.) Now, I don't know about you, Moron, but given the fuzzy picture of the Krema and the "vents" I would say that the angle of their "shadows" is pretty close to that of the chimney. Being about 1 degree off is hardly "not corresponding with any other shadow angles" in my book. Of, course, if you'd checked the angles yourself instead of parroting what Ball says, Moron, you may have figured this out. After all, Ball lied about the metric, and therefore distances, on the photo on page 51. He ignored clear evidence of smoke over, around, and coming from Krema V on pages 69 and 71. Hell, why not lie about the direction of the "shadows" on the vents too! > over lapping black blobs on buildings, It has been pointed out several times that the Ball's claims about "marks drawn to be 'prisoner groups in formation'" is nothing more than a canard of his own making. To reiterate once more: Brugioni and Poirier write in regard to the August 25, 1944 air photo: Photo Evidence: a 10x enlargement of imagery aquired on August 25 covers only the southern third of Birkenau and is of very high quality for its day (Photo 4). The imagery illustrates eyewitness accounts of the death process at Birkenau. A rail transport of 33 cars is at the Birkenau railhead and debrkation point. Prisoners can be seen beside the train. The selection process is either underway or completed. One group of prisoners is apparantly being marched to gas chamber and Crematorium II. Groups of prisoners can be seen marching about the compound, stabding formation, undergoing disinfection and performing tasks which cannot be identifed soley from imagery. A detailed view of the Women's Camp and individual barrack blocks was obtained. (Many of the so-called "barracks" provided as living quarters were origionally were origionally prefabricated stables intended for use in Africa with the Arfika Korps.) We can also identify details of the camp security system- the electrifed fences, guard towers, the camp main gate and guardhouse, as well as the special security arrangements around the gas chambers and crematoria. Source: Brugioni and Poirier, _The Holocaust Revisted_, p.7-8. In Photo 4 (captioned "Extermination Process at Birkenau, 25 August 1944") Brugioni and Poirier have labeled two groups of prisoners. One group of prisoners, who are on the "ramp" near the third rail spur, is labeled "Prisoners on way to gas chambers" These prisoners are identifed by Ball on page 46 of _Air Photo Evidence as "marks drawn as 'lines of prisoners." The other group of prisoners, lined up to the western most latrine building of Camp IIe (i.e. nearest Kremas II and III in the photo). This "J" shpaed line of prisoners is simply labeled "Prisoners." Ball makes no comment whatsoever about these prisoners on page 46 of _Air Photo Evidence_. What Ball calls "marks drawn to be 'prisoner groups in formation'" is not labelled in Photo 4. Nor are they by the same latrine building in Camp BIIe that Brugioni and Poirier identified in Photo 4 as having prisoners nearby. In fact, only by careful comparison between Brugioni and Poirier's Photo 4 and Balls photo on page 46 is it apparent that approximately _half_ of the western most "mark" of the seven (eight?) "marks" Ball calls "prisoner groups in formation" can be seen. The other "marks" are not in Photo 4. Ball has simply (and conviently) jumped to the conclusion, unsupported by the photgraphic evidence in Photo 4 on page 9 in _The Holocausty Revisted_, that his "marks drawn to be prisoner groups in formation" are what Brugioni and Poirier had written were prisoners "standing formation" in the text on page 7. The question to Ball, is of course, why did he label "marks" which are not easily recognizeable between his and Brugioni and Poirier's photos? Especially when only a _portion_ of _one_ "mark" is barely visible in the lower left corner of Photo? Why did Ball label the "marks" in his photo as "prisoner groups in formation" when Brugioni and Poirier did not label or otherwise identify this fraction of a "mark" in the photo in any manner whatsoever? Can Moron say "strawman argument"? > zig zag lines, the absence of other things we should be seeing if > we are to beleive the alleged introduction ports, etc.]] Such as? > Morris says: > >The original reels are intact, so no one has spliced in a tampered > >negative. So where would this "pencilling" have been done? On every > >single photo in sequence? If so, there would be noticeable variation > >in the tampering. The deatils in the photos are really quite tiny > >because they were taken from airplane flyng at 25-30000 feet. Why does > >Ball not produce evidence of variation in the sequences of photos? > > [[ No originals of the reels are accessible. The ones that are > available in the archives are reproductions. ]] The origional negatives are kept in the National Archives at College Park. > Morris says: > >Ball also saw the negatives. If there are differences between the > >negatives and altered *prints*, why does Ball not produce this > >evidence? > > [[ The negatives were the negatives from which he took the prints. ]] The origional negatives are kept in the National Archives at College Park. < > > It doesn't matter anyway. If it doesn't matter why did Moron make a stink about it then? Obviously, it _does_ matter to Moron but when it is pointed out that he is, well, being a moron over it, he scuttles away.... > If there are dozens, Offhand I can list over two dozen: Auschwitz Box RGB 373 - 3019 RGB 373 - 3020 RGB 373 - 3021 RGB 373 - 3022 RGB 373 - 3055 RGB 373 - 3056 RGB 373 - 3185 RGB 373 - 3186 RGB 373 - 4018 RGB 373 - 4020 RGB 373 - 4020 RGB 373 - 4023 RGB 373 - 5004 RGB 373 - 5022 Auschwitz Box Envelope 17/Security Set Annotated CIA Negatives RGB 373 - 0003 RGB 373 - 0004 RGB 373 - 0005 RGB 373 - 0006 RGB 373 - 0007 RGB 373 - 0008 RGB 373 - 0008 RGB 373 - 0009 RGB 373 - 0010 RGB 373 - 0011 RGB 373 - 0012 RGB 373 - 0013 RGB 373 - 0014 RGB 373 - 0015 Auschwitz Box GX/DT/TM/Germany East Auschwitz RGB 373 - 0038 > and Mr.Morris says he knows about them, then we could assume he has seen them, > and then we can assume they show nothing... That would be a bad assumption. > ...or else Mr.(bodies burn like wood ) > Morris would have been making a big thing about it over the years. Subject: Re: U.S. held photos - Arch enemy of the lie Date: 1999/04/21 Author: Mark Van Alstine < > In article <email@example.com>, firstname.lastname@example.org (tom moran) wrote: [snip] > Considerable piles of coal by each building alleged to have > been a crematorium. Each building needing 150 tons a day. The Kremas had internal coal storage rooms. > Piles of cinders left over from the 150 tons per building each > day. Disposed of. > Smoke coming out of the chimneys. Bad timing. For example, according to the Nazi records, no transports arrived on at Birkenau when the June 26, 1944, Allied air pphoto was taken. However, for example, both the May 31 and July 8, 1944, air photos (taken by the USAAF and Lüftwaffe, respectively) both show smoke coming from an incineration pit behind Krema V. > People lined up. The AUgust 26, 1944 air photos show people detrained and walking along the ramp at Birkenau towards Kremas II and III. > Cadre and Sondercommandos (prisoner workers) around. The Sonderkommandos were kept inside the Kremas during special actions. > Piles of dead bodies piled out side awaiting cremation because > the inside is already filled up with bodies awaiting cremation. A Polish resistance photo shows dead bodies behind Krema V where beside a smoking incineration pit. The same pit, btw, identified in the air photos. > Piles of charred carcasses piled outside. The corspes of the victims were burned to ash. > Crushing machines to further reduce the charred carcasses. The "crushing machines" consisted of a concrete slabs on which prisoners crushed the frengible bone fragments of the incinerated victims with mallets. < > > Mr.(bodies burn like wood) Morris is a German-hating propagandist. ]] Moron is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial. Moron generally conducts himself with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond other than to point out his vile behavior. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please peruse DejaNews and visit the Nizkor Project at: http://www.dejanews.com/ http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the box-office? For evidence of this please see: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq Mark -- "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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