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From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 15:02:57 PDT 1996
Article: 41457 of alt.revisionism
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From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman)
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Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:34:50 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>>  The point is that food producers are PAYING Jewish rabbis pretty good
>>salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of the
>>population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in journalism,
>>politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- salaries for
>>doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO VALUE
>>to what the company sells.       

>Are they? And your proof for this is....? How much does a
>company pay to have a product certified as kosher? What does
>"kosher" mean? 

First of all, let me say that the person who began this thread is an
uneducated, bigoted ass.

That said, I have a bit of experience with this issue. I worked as a
product manager for Kraft General Foods (Maxwell House Coffee), and
Nabisco (Planters nuts); both divisions produce products certified
kosher.

The easiest way to dissolve this pinhead's contentions is to say that
the companies certifying kosher do not do so only to capture the
Jewish consumer. It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY
researched through statistically valid means, that non-Jewish
consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a
'higher' quality product. Many do not know exactly what the mark
means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it. This
is such a well-known phenomenon that it is not even debated in the
world of food marketing.

What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of, one that
processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full
day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
organization's fee.

One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to
comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over
$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2
billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer.

 There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer
certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than
others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it
can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them.
Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual
market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd.

The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down
and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The
plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but rather
scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's
visit. Just part of the annual cycle.

Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in
several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is
important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even
geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House
Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints
up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is
the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United
States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year,
and are quite proud of the fact.

So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you
actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which doesn't
make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at best
a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud
history and a stake in the foundation of the United States.

Regards

Steve Bartman
sbartman@ix.netcom.com



From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 19:30:16 PDT 1996
Article: 41487 of alt.revisionism
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From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
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Well, Chuckie, I certainly seem to have gotten your attention with a
few facts. Not used to ranting at someone who's been there-done that
are you?

joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:


>  Not true. They do it to avoid the hassle of becoming the brunt of
>media attacks on them: attacks which could, if they occurred, have a
>serious effect on sales. 

Funny, when I looked around the conference room when the annual
decision to recertify came up I didn't see your pale, sweating face
there. Are you invisible? Telepathic?

Nor did I see you holding up a placard at the back of the room when
the Marketing Research staff presented analysis of volume behavior
between kosher and non-kosher SKUs. (You did study what an SKU is in
your marketing curriculum, didn't you Chuckie?)

So, it seems your presumption is nothing more than a paranoid fantasy,
which we knew, but that you continue to reenforce with each new post.
..
>  No company would want to risk being demonized in the media because it
>refused to hire a rabbi (at $5,000.00/day, as you admit below) to
>"certify" its food products as "kosher."

This is a valid statement, but since its premise is untrue, the
statement is untrue. (You did study classical Logic in school, right
Chuckie?) And no need for the quote marks: certify its food products
as kosher is perfectly fine and proper. Your attempt to show the
process as odd or improper is lame and displays your ignorance.

Not only would it likely be
>openly characterized as "a neo-nazi company" but it might become the
>victim of the all-too-typical, politically-motivated media "hit piece"
>(e.g. "Without rabbis to "supervise," is Company X now selling possibly
>unwholesome and dangerous food products? We look into this startling
>possibility in tonight's show.")

Perhaps in the media sources a sad, little person such as yourself
peruse.

>> It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY
>>researched through statistically valid means,

>  And your proof for this assertion is . . . ?

Internal, proprietary documents you have no right to see. Or, you
could go to any business school library and read the volumes of
research open to the public. I've done my work, I won't do yours.

>> that non-Jewish
>>consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a
>>'higher' quality product.

>  Look, superstitions such as that "kosher" = "better" are notoriously
>hard to fight.

"Consider" does not equal "superstition." You twist my words.
Clumsily. And, there is no need to "fight" the perception. It exists,
it makes some consumers more secure. That is, in marketing terms, one
of the "bundle of benefits" in the product and the transaction stream.
 
>  However, rather than continue -- indeed, REINFORCE -- people's 
>superstitions about this,

Moving from another untrue premise ("keeping kosher=superstition"), we
move to another untrue conclusion. Where did you say you went to
school?

 it would be more ethical for companies  to
>educate the consumer as to how it's really quite unnecessary for a
>rabbi to be paid $10,000.00 for two-days "work" to "certify" what the
>largely non-Jewish consumers buy. Because who, ultimately, picks up the
>tab for the rabbi's $5,000.00/day salary? The largely non-Jewish
>consumers, of course.
>
There's so much that is wrong, misinformed, and just plain dumb here I
don't know where to start. First, companies exist to produce returns
on their shareholders' money, while complying with laws and
regulations. Period. "Ethical" ain't in there unless, as is usually
the case, it aids the overall goal of profitability. Actively seeking
to drive away paying customers would not be ethical, just stupid.

Second, the kosher mark is not "unnecessary" if the firm wants sales
>from  observant Jews. Since their money is as good as anyone else's the
question becomes a cost/benefit analysis. I've told you that these are
in fact performed; the cost of certification is minimal versus the
revenue and margin attained from those sales. Presto, a decision
emerges. Certify, and make money. See, no conspiracy, Chuckie.
Fiduciary law perhaps, serving the shareholders perhaps, but no master
plan to cheat Chuckie.

Third, the dollar figure I quoted is not for "two-day's work", it is
an annual fee for everything associated with the mark, including the
reputation of the organization giving it. Do you think the Good
Housekeeping seal, or the Underwriter's Laboratory mark are free?
Firms pay a LOT of consultants, trade groups, lobbyists, designers,
researchers, and trade magazines in the course of building and running
a business. Ten thousand dollars is nothing. And, again, it's a
private business decision that you are not being invited to vote on,
except with your retail dollar, or by becoming a voting shareholder.

>> Many do not know exactly what the mark
>>means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it.

>  Wow, as an employee -- a MANAGER, at that! -- of Kraft and Nabisco
>you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the consumers of those
>companies' products. They "do not know exactly what the mark means, but
>they know it is a 'good thing' . . . " 
>  I wonder what the top officials of those companies would think of an
>employee who apparently looks down on the very people who buy their
>merchandise?

Well, they promoted me, so . . .

Again, you display a total lack of understanding of marketing or
consumer behavior. I had a tremendous respect for our consumers, and
their obvious high intelligence at choosing our products. I stood in
the aisles of grocery stores many times discussing their perceptions
of our products in detail, I attended lots of focus groups, I read
mail and comment cards. I never tried to change their perceptions
about a matter of personal preference, however. (This is clearly
different than providing factual information or correcting a factual
mis-perception.) No businessperson in a right mind sets out to say to
a potential customer: "What you believe is stupid. Now, would you like
to buy something of mine?" Maybe in Chuckie-land that's smart, but
then we know you don't live in the same world the rest of us do.
  
>> one that
>>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full
>>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>>organization's fee.
>>
>>One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to
>>comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over
>>$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2
>>billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer.

>  Unbelievable, how you're desperately trying to connect two entirely
>DIFFERENT things?
>  The FDA-mandated nutritional labels were NOT "mandated" by any
>particular RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- much less one that comprises less
>than 1% of the nation's consumers!
>  The FDA is a G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T-A-L agency, certainly *NOT* a
>smallish (-1% of the population) traditionally exclusivist
>RACIAL/RELIGIOUS organization. As such, it's purpose is to serve ALL
>the people -- not just the members of a specific racial/religious
>congregation.
>  Duh!

Duh! back. Chuckie plainly shows he cannot think non-linearly. I was
showing an order-of-magnitude example of typical packaging costs
unrelated to the kosher issue.

Again, the decision to certify, or not (many firms choose not to) is a
PRIVATE business decision. If the government mandated certification
I'd be on this NG yelling as loudly as I could. But they don't.
(BTW, if you think the FDA reg. changes were not motivated by interest
groups I have a bridge to sell you.)

And, just for kicks, since you keep bringing up this 1% figure for the
Jewish population, what would be the EXACT size a specific group
should be before a firm should perform any special, cost-incurring
operation on its product line? I need an exact figure, Chuckie, with
analysis. Upper management won't settle for your kind of squishy
logic. Don't worry, we'll wait.
 
>> There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer
>>certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than
>>others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it
>>can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them.

>  Yes, we can all certainly SEE that there's real "price competition
>among them"! NOT!

I've seen the bids. And you've seen them where? . . .

>  $5,000.00 for 8 hours of "work" spent "crawling over equipment,
>looking at records and invoices," etc. "Tough work but somebody's got
>to do it," I guess, huh?

Again, you completely miss the point. You insist on implying these
rabbis do some sort of "drive-by" certification. I'm telling you they
take their responsibility much more seriously. They get dirty, they
sweat, they ask questions. I've seen management consultants paid a lot
more for a lot less.

And yes, since you brought it up, "somebody" has to do it, and that
somebody is a professional who studied for many years to attain his
station. When you go to the doctor do you expect to pay?

>  I can just hear the bidding rabbi now: "Mr. Food Company President,
>believe me, I'm LOSING money on this deal! $5000.00/day for two days of
>work in your factory per year: that's my FINAL OFFER! A guy's gotta
>make a living, you know! And I won't even charge you extra for making
>me climb the ladder to reach that mixer!"  

Don't quit your day job, Chuckie. There are already enough bad
stand-up acts.

>>Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual
>>market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd.

I see you didn't respond to this. What's the matter? You were pretty
fast and loose with the $300 claim. Are you dropping this absurd (I
say again) contention?

>>The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down
>>and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The
>>plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but rather
>>scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's
>>visit. Just part of the annual cycle.

>  This statement sheds light on possible dangers that we weren't even
>aware of. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

"Possible dangers!" Run for the hills! It's okay Chuckie, the FDA (and
the USDA on the raw material) do a pretty good job, no conspiracy
loons need involve themselves.

>  It seems that there may be a temptation for companies to neglect
>"scheduled training and preventative maintenance" until the word gets
>out that "THE RABBI'S COMING! HURRY, WE GOTTA CLEAN THIS PLACE UP!"
>  What happens during the other 364 days of the year before and after
>the day of the rabbi's visit?

Normal sanitation to company QA norms (which exceed the FDA
requirements.) Normal corrective maintenance. Have you ever worked
around machinery, Chuckie? It's hard to do preventative maitenance
(again, another private business decision to minimize overhead through
unplanned downtime) on rotating machinery. And, if you knew the first
thing about the process involved in kosher certification, and Jewish
dietary laws, you wouldn't have posted the above. But you don't, and
you did, and I'm not going to educate you here.

>  Proper sanitation, maintenance and training of personnel should not
>be the direct results of an impending visit of a rabbi or anyone else,
>but YEAR-ROUND practices.

GIve it a rest, fool.
   
>>Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in
>>several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is
>>important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even
>>geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House
>>Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints
>>up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is
>>the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United
>>States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year,
>>and are quite proud of the fact.

>  That makes sense.

Of course it does, as does everything else I've told you.

>  But why must consumers in other parts of the country which have
>negligible Jewish populations also have to contribute towards that
>$5,000.00/day salary the rabbi receives?

Listen carefully, Chuckie, I'll only say this one more time: they
don't have to "must" anything. It's a market. Don't participate if
that little 'U' or 'K' bothers you. Eat sand for all I care. It's a
private transaction, freely entered into. If you don't like the
price--seeya.

>>So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you
>>actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which doesn't
>>make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at best
>>a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud
>>history and a stake in the foundation of the United States.
>>
>   . . . OR it could also be something which,

The stable currency of conspiracy loons: :Or it COULD be . . ."

 while it really WOULDN'T
>make sense in a truly free, "un-politicized" market in the vast
>majority of cases, IS "a naked business decision" in the sense that
>it's ALWAYS prudent business practice to avoid provoking a small but
>vocal and politically-powerful minority which could damage your company
>through media "hit pieces" and through sheer government intervention.
>THAT'S the "naked business decision" these companies make, and I
>understand why they do so . . . though I wish their leaders were in a
>position to be more frank about it.

Their leaders are not obligated to be frank with Chuckie about
anything, zip, zilch, nada. They work for their shareholders. Once you
understand that basic fact, get back to me. Until then, you're just
tiresome.
  
Steve Bartman
>>sbartman@ix.netcom.com






From myra@primenet.com Fri Jun  7 13:53:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41663 of alt.revisionism
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From: Myra Dinnerstein 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 7 Jun 1996 03:40:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
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X-Posted-By: myra@usr5.primenet.com

Steve Bartman  wrote:

: My wife (a Christian) lived in an apartment house in Brooklyn where
: some of the apartments had a second 'Passover kitchen' that was
: scrubbed and sealed the rest of the year. Also as you say two sets of
: dishes, one milk, one meat. At Passover the Jewish residents would
: give her a dollar and say: "You own all the leaven in my home" in case
: they missed a crumb while cleaning. I find traditions this deep
: fascinating; I wish my heritage had more like them.

Jews aren't allowed to own "chametz" (leavened foods) during Passover, so 
they sell it to a Gentile neighbor, friend, etc.  Some synagogues make 
arrangements with churches to sell the chametz to them.

: I believe Muslims (somebody will correct me I'm sure) call their rules
: Halal. In New York you often see 'Halal Meat' advertised. I had a
: Muslim professor in college (Iranian) who was an imam (he could do
: marriages I remember), and he discussed his ritual slaughter duties
: once. I think this is a big part of halal--the kid may not be killed
: in sight of its mother, etc. As I say, I don't really know, so no
: flames. Would like to learn if anyone knows more.

I'm not that certain about Islamic laws about food, but I believe they 
are quite similar to Judaic laws.

Also, Seventh Day Adventists also look for and purchase kosher products.

Take care,

Myra


From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:58:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41709 of alt.revisionism
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From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 01:56:20 GMT
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) writes...

>    Thank you for an excellent post rebutting this kosher tax antisemitism.

You're very welcome.

> 
>>What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of, one that
>>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full
>>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>>organization's fee.

>    So, based on these figures it would seem that the cost of the rabbi
>    roughly works out to be one onehundredth of one cent for each half
>    pound container of peanuts.  So if a person consumed a half pound
>    container of peanuts every day for a year, that person would have
>    contributed about 3.7 cents towards the commission of the rabbi.  A far
>    cry from $300.

If I remember my scanner data, a 'heavy user' of peanuts (household,
not individual) buys about 50 ounces PER YEAR. (This is a problem. The
category is declining as Frito et al have taken over salty snacks.) I
don't have a calculator handy, but you can see the order of magnitude.

Of course, most kosher issues settle on prepared meat and dairy
products, so you'd have to put them in a market basket. But many other
products either can never be kosher, or their producers don't bother.
Regional and family-run businesses often don't do certification so
they'd be excluded from the basket. Even so, if the typical cost of
the basket  is more than $.25/household/year I'd be surprised. 

Steve 



From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Sat Jun  8 15:53:15 PDT 1996
Article: 41285 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny)
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Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 5 Jun 1996 17:48 MST
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In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes...
>  "Refuse to hire a rabbi to ensure the products you sell are kosher,
>will you? Don't be surprised if *we* (Jews) start POUNDING you,
>demonizing your company and products relentlessly in the media! How'd
>ya like to see a grotesquely-drawn picture of one of your company's
>products on the cover of TIME or NEWSWEEK or featured in a '60 Minutes'
>'hit piece' under the bold heading 'WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT DANGEROUS,
>SHODDY PRODUCTS'? If you thought our recent covers of Newt
>Gingrich-as-Scrooge or depictions of Pat Buchanan as a neo-nazi were
>bad, we could give YOU the same kind of treatment if you don't put our
>rabbis in your factories and pay them good salaries!

    This is stupid hate mongering.  There are lots of products in the
    supermarket which aren't kosher.  And the kosher community simply
    ignores them.  Every bit of meat in the average grocery store butcher
    section is unkosher.  Most processed foods which includes meat -
    including every TV dinner - is unkosher.  Every frozen pizza with
    pepperoni or sausage on it is unkosher.  Lots of other foods in your
    average grocery store are unkosher.  The kosher Jewish community simply
    ignores those foods.  They don't make a fuss about them.

    And IF you think it costs more money to produce kosher food, it is
    obvious from the list above that you have lots of non-kosher choices to
    pick from in every grocery store.

    There is no kosher tax.  There is no issue here.  All there is here are
    hate mongering anti-semitics who think they can lie to the masses to
    score a few points.

    Lets see you rebut this, Joebuck.  

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From kamamer@zap.io.org Sun Jun  9 13:17:55 PDT 1996
Article: 42143 of alt.revisionism
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From: kamamer@zap.io.org (karl mamer)
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Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 8 Jun 1996 10:43:21 -0400
Organization: Internex Online (shell.io.org), Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes:

> >One, please cite who these economists are and where they've published
> this data.
> 
>   A legitimate request. I'll look up the specific references (names,
> dates of publication, etc.) as soon as I can get to a library. In the
> meantime, if anyone has that info available, please post it ASAP.

I'm waiting. I think we all are waiting. As it has been pointed out
to you, there are about 5,000,000 families in Canada. At $300 per family,
that's 1.5 billion dollars. Are you certain kosher labelling is really 
a 1.5 billion dollar industry in Canada?

> salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of the
> population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in journalism,
> politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- salaries for
> doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO VALUE
> to what the company sells.

Does bilingual labelling add value to a product? Does paying Dennis
Rodman $30,000,000 to endorse a running shoe add value?
      

>   That's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE! Please don't keep confusing them:
>   1. In the case of the new bilingually-labelled products,
> manufacturers are making their products MORE ACCESSIBLE to a large
> group by "using their language." 

Ummm, again kosher labelling allows a company to make its products
accessible to a large group. How exactly are they totally different
issues, then?

> US are also Roman Catholics: so far as I know, no company has hired and
> paid full-time Catholic priests to "bless" their products. Can you

Modern Catholics have no dietary laws and don't need a priest to
bless their products. And don't you suppose christian religous
superstitions also add to certain costs? For example, there are 
american christians lobbying to get highway 666 renamed. If that goes
through, how much is it going to cost non-christians in taxes
to replace all the signs?

>   2. There are WAY, WAY more Catholic Hispanic consumers in the US than
> Jewish ones and, not only that, but the birth rates of Hispanic
> consumers are skyrocketing -- while those of Jews have been plummeting
> for years with no change expected.

When you go to the library to look up that $300 figure, also get some
figures on population ratios and birth rates to back that one up.

-- 
"BTW please have your chimp give me a call one day."
                                   - Bob Allisat


From henri@alaska.net Sun Jun  9 13:23:55 PDT 1996
Article: 22171 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 9 Jun 1996 18:16:58 GMT
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No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's  
neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' 
exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, 
and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at 
all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of 
that fact for, well, just ages. 

The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in 
France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after 
all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will 
believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. 

But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the 
kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will 
NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? 

Wake up America!  H. Ayre.



From dbraun@u.washington.edu Sun Jun  9 13:23:56 PDT 1996
Article: 22175 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: "D. Braun" 
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Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:36:35 -0700
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On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:

> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's
> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal,
> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at
> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of
> that fact for, well, just ages.

Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, and
an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you put
it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first hand
knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked Charles'
wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation boiled
down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many costs a
firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, and
second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust of a
family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense of
the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time commercials
for Nilla Wafers!! Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed because it
sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an
antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact?

> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in
> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after
> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV.
>
> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the
> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will
> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>
> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.

And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and out.

		Dave Braun



From henri@alaska.net Sun Jun  9 14:57:53 PDT 1996
Article: 42260 of alt.revisionism
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From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 9 Jun 1996 18:16:58 GMT
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No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's  
neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' 
exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, 
and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at 
all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of 
that fact for, well, just ages. 

The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in 
France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after 
all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will 
believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. 

But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the 
kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will 
NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? 

Wake up America!  H. Ayre.



From dbraun@u.washington.edu Sun Jun  9 14:57:54 PDT 1996
Article: 42265 of alt.revisionism
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From: "D. Braun" 
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Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:36:35 -0700
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 41
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On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:

> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's
> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal,
> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at
> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of
> that fact for, well, just ages.

Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, and
an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you put
it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first hand
knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked Charles'
wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation boiled
down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many costs a
firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, and
second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust of a
family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense of
the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time commercials
for Nilla Wafers!! Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed because it
sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an
antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact?

> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in
> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after
> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV.
>
> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the
> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will
> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>
> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.

And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and out.

		Dave Braun



From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Sun Jun  9 14:57:55 PDT 1996
Article: 42267 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny)
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Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 9 Jun 1996 11:24 MST
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In article <4pdl6h$eo1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
> 
>>>  Now, the former Kraft/Nabisco company manager who posted here
>>>suggested, I believe, that the food preparation factories of those
>>>companies were adequately sanitary year-round, not just before
>Passover
>>>when word spreads through the food plant that, "THE RABBI'S COMING!" 
>>
>>    Yes he did.  What's your point?

    I see you did not address this.  I take it you have no point here.

>>> (I wonder how the blue-collar factory workers would feel, BTW, about
>>>those Rabbi Inspectors if they were aware that, because of the
>>>"strenuous" (not) "religious duties" the rabbis have to perform --
>such
>>>as, our ex-company manager informs us, "climbing all over equipment,
>>>checking invoices, etc." (tough work, to be sure!) -- if they were
>>>aware that he was earning, for a mere FEW HOURS of such "tough work,"
>>>what it undoubtedly takes THEM, the regular food workers who do the
>>>REALLY hard work day-in and day-out, months and months to earn!)
>>
>>    As Steve said, the fee was for overall kosher oversite, it was not
>>for simply climbing over the machines.  The latter was your
>>misunderstanding of how these things work. 
> 
>  "Overall kosher oversite"? In TWO DAYS OF "WORK" . . . @ a salary of
>$5.000.00 per day . . . go figure.

    As I address below, the two days of onsite work include lots of
    preparation time, followup time, and related overhead.  Remember, this
    was the winning bid among three competing rabbinical groups.

>>    For example, in a completely unrelated field, my company charges
>>$2,500 a day for my consulting time.  You might say that I am getting
>>paid about $300 a hour (I'm actually paid a salary much less than
>>that), but in reality when you calculate in all of the up front
>>preparation time, and the follow-up consultation time that is not
>>charged directly, the $2,500 a day works out to somethign reasonable. 
>>I probably put in about 3 days work for every day on-site with a
>>client.
> 
>  And WHO, exactly, pays for your $2,500. a day salary? The person or
>company who hired you, that's who. Certainly NOT millions of American
>consumers who had no desire to hire you in the first place. 

    Wrongo, Sherlock.  The firms that hire me must pass along to their
    customers their costs of doing business, just like Planters Peanuts
    does.  In fact one company I did work for last year was Proctor &
    Gamble.  So, in just the way the kosher certification added a small
    fraction of a penny to a jar of peanuts, my work added a very small
    fraction of a penny to every tube of Crest toothpaste, Tide detergent,
    and everything else P&G sells.

    This impacts you exactly the same way kosher certification does.  If
    you buy a P&G product you are paying my consulting fee.  AND you are
    doing it having at this moment absolutely no idea what topic I was
    consulting on.  For all you know, my work impacts you no more than
    koshering peanuts does, but you gotta pay if you want to buy a P&G
    product.  What do you think of that?

>>    I am confident that the $5,000 a day fee that Steve mentioned
>>amounts to somthing similar - the rabbi's do a lot of work off-site as
>>well as the work they do on-site for that fee. 
> 
>  Yeah, I'm sure these rabbis really perform "a lot of work off-site"
>for that fee! Such as topping-off their cars' tanks with the gas
>allowances Bartman admitted the company also pays them (in addition to
>the $10,000.00 per day they already receive for their two days "work"),
>paying their waiters at the restaurants with those extra travel expense
>allowances Bartman admitted the companies pays them . . . Tough job,
>"climbing all over equipment, checking invoices" and such -- I can't
>understand why EVERYONE, especially the food companies' 365-day-a-year
>overwhelmingly non-Jewish, blue-collar employees, aren't paid $5000.000
>a day to do such work!

    Hey, you think you can do better, go and underbid the rabbis for the
    work.

>> Also, just as I don't keep the $2,500 my company is paid, I am sure
>>that an individual rabbi does not keep the $5,000 his organization is
>paid.  Much of it goes towards overhead. 
> 
>  That's funny. :-)  

    Glad you have a sense of humor.  Somehow I have the feeling you have
    absolutely no idea what we are talking about, though.

>>(Why do I not expect you to understand this?)
> 
>  I know, I'm just an "uppity" goy. Why should I be expected to
>understand this? :-)

    Exactly.

>>>  In a competetive market -- especially at this time of corporate
>>>down-sizing, a depressed market in many areas of the food industry,
>>>factories closing all over the nation, etc. -- the idea that a
>>company would WILLINGLY pay $500.00 to a non-employee to do something
>>which essentially adds NOTHING of value to their products in the view
>>of most consumers, is absurd.
> 
>>    Ah, but it does add percieved value to their customers. 
>>Customers, as Steve has told us, are more willing to buy the product
>>if they see the kosher symbol on the label.  He told us that this goes
>>both for Jewish and non-Jewish purchasers.
> 
>  Look, cigarettes have "perceived value" for millions of smokers --
>otherwise they wouldn't buy them. But the government REQUIRES cigarette
>packages to contain a *WARNING* from none other than the nation's
>Surgeon General, exploding the cigarettes-are-good-for-you myth.
>  Perhaps the government should also REQUIRE "kosher-certified"
>products to bear a similar *WARNING*:

>             "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE SPENT TOO MUCH FOR THIS PRODUCT.
>              THE FACT THAT THIS PRODUCT BEARS A MARK INDICATING       
>              THAT IT IS 'KOSHER-CERTIFIED' DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS IN
>              ANY WAY SUPERIOR TO NON-KOSHER-CERTIFIED PRODUCTS. THE   
>              REQUIREMENTS OF KOSHER DIETARY LAWS AFFECT ONLY A SMALL  
>              PERCENTAGE (-.5%) OF THE GENERAL POPULATION. IF UNSURE AS
>              TO WHETHER YOU MUST FOLLOW A KOSHER DIET, PLEASE CONTACT 
>              YOUR NEAREST RELIGIOUS LEADER."

    Great.  Call your legislator and see if you can get this enacted.  It's
    a democracy.  Shoot your best shot.  In the US, this would probably be
    unconstitutional, but you can get the constitution changed too - if it
    is that important to you, big guy.

>>>  Now, our ex-nut man [Bartman] states that many goy consumers
>>>(i.e.non-Jewish
>>>consumers) see the "U" for "kosher" on a product and it makes them,
>>>however naively and superstitiously, feel as though that mark is a
>>>sign of a higher-quality product -- EVEN WHEN THEY TYPICALLY CANNOT
>>>EVEN DESCRIBE HOW, EXACTLY, BEING KOSHER "CHANGES" A PRODUCT!
>>>(Answer: it doesn't! All it does is add to the cost of the product.)
> 
>[deletia]
> 
>>>  BTW, am I the only one who's confident that the heavily-Jewish ACLU
>>>would be extremely vocal in its outrage if, for example, food
>>>producers started imprinting, say, crosses instead of rabbits and
>>>"Easter eggs" on their products during Christian religious holidays?
>>>I mean, look how bent out of shape they get when someone says a
>>>prayer before a high school football game, or how incensed they are
>>>when someone tries to place a cross next to the menorah at city halls
>>>all over the country every December, as if on cue!
> 
>>    This is stupid.  Grocery stores are filled with Christmas and
>>Easter good in season.  Neither the ACLU nor the Jewish community
>>complains about private businesses marketing Christain goods.  You
>>have no examples of such complaints as none exist, do you?
>>If fact, you don't really have any understanding about the difference
>>between public and private religious symbolism, do you?
> 
>  Look, most people, I'm confident -- unlike you, apparently -- realize
>that depictions of, say, Santa Claus, Christmas trees, or Easter eggs
>on product packaging during holidays are NOT religious, but are
>entirely secular in nature.
>  Which is clearly unlike the "U" symbol used to indicate that products
>have received a SPECIAL RELIGIOUS "CERTIFICATION" BY AN ORDAINED
>OFFICIAL (i.e. A RABBI) OF A PARTICULAR RELIGION.

    You haven't been following the Tom Moran thread about crosses and
    menorahs in alt.revisionism, have you?

    Grocery stores sell both religious and secular Christian items.  The
    Jewish community doesn't care.  The ACLU doesn't care.  Do you care? 
    Do you know that many grocery stores take up space with yortseit (sp?) 
    candles?  Do you have a problem with this?  What if they sell rosary
    beads or some such thing?  After all, these stores are private
    enterprises and they choose to sell products which they think will
    maximize their profits.  Got a problem with that?

    You have a very strange view of this economic system.  Methinks you are
    not too educated.  You deleted my previous question of whether you have
    ever taken an economics class.  Have you?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dbraun@u.washington.edu Sun Jun  9 14:57:56 PDT 1996
Article: 42268 of alt.revisionism
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From: "D. Braun" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:57:27 -0700
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On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:

> I note someone has claimed that Spam is not part of the kosher food game.
> Spam has pork in it. Wouldn't it be a riot if some Rabbi approved Spam as
> a kosher food? In fact, one unnamed Rabbi did something similar in
> approving a certain brand of lard (pork fat) as kosher! He desperately
> wanted the fee that came with each approval. Shortly thereafter, the
> approval was yanked by Jewish authorities in the hierarchy who
> (ruefully?) saw that such a kosher approval would expose the whole scam
> to ridicule.  H. Ayre.

This kind of reminds me of the Monty Python skit involving the Noreseman
singing the praises of spam in a smokey meadhall of yore.  It makes as
much sense---but it was much funnier.  Get a clue, get a life, or go die,
loser.

		Dave Braun



From yawen@enter.net Sun Jun  9 21:22:16 PDT 1996
Article: 42318 of alt.revisionism
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From: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 10 Jun 1996 00:10:01 GMT
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>   joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes:

>  
>    "Overall kosher oversite"? In TWO DAYS OF "WORK" . . . @ a salary of
>  $5.000.00 per day . . . go figure.


	I take it you have never heard of James MacNeill Whistler.

>    And WHO, exactly, pays for your $2,500. a day salary? The person or
>  company who hired you, that's who. Certainly NOT millions of American
>  consumers who had no desire to hire you in the first place. 

	That, by the way, is the base fee for an expert's testimony in court in my 
neck of the woods.  Expertise costs.

	--YFE


From henri@alaska.net Sun Jun  9 21:22:19 PDT 1996
Article: 42343 of alt.revisionism
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From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
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I note someone has claimed that Spam is not part of the kosher food game. 
Spam has pork in it. Wouldn't it be a riot if some Rabbi approved Spam as 
a kosher food? In fact, one unnamed Rabbi did something similar in 
approving a certain brand of lard (pork fat) as kosher! He desperately 
wanted the fee that came with each approval. Shortly thereafter, the 
approval was yanked by Jewish authorities in the hierarchy who 
(ruefully?) saw that such a kosher approval would expose the whole scam 
to ridicule.  H. Ayre.



From dbraun@u.washington.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:32 PDT 1996
Article: 42372 of alt.revisionism
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From: "D. Braun" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 21:36:00 -0700
Organization: University of Washington
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Apparently, Charles isn't old enough to drive; on a related thread, he has
repeatedly posted "I know you are, but what am I"; the guy is a victim of
child abuse---Nazi propaganda forcefed him from a young age.  He needs
counseling, soon.

		Dave braun

On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:

> In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre  writes:
> >
> >No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong.
>
>   Thank you.
>
> > Note Dave's
> >neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
> >exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
> eternal,
> >and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth
> at
> >all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware
> of
> >that fact for, well, just ages.
>
>   Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once
> "exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so,
> understandably, he believed it.
>
> >The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not
> in
> >France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after
> >all, the most gullible people in the world,
>
>   Probably true, in many respects.
>   And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive,"
> especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed"
> (i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan, etc.)
>  . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some
> here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite admirably,
> they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE
> anti-semites or racists.
>   I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to
> question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00
> (+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however,
> THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal
> beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the purely
> economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling.
>   Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true American,
> am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online
> Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . .
> they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the
> imposition of the so-called "kosher tax."
>   I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of the
> Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war "pacifists"
> and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War seemingly
> spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the
> Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat
> Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again
> Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US
> which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get
> involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews
> were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would
> actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible chemical
> and biological weapons.
>
> > easily conned, who will
> >believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV.
>
> >
> >But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that
> the
> >kosher inspection is done for FREE?
>
>   This is exactly what I've been asking.
>
> Or that the food manufacturer will
> >NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>
>   Precisely.
>
> >Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
> >
>
>
>



From dbraun@u.washington.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:33 PDT 1996
Article: 42376 of alt.revisionism
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From: "D. Braun" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 21:40:33 -0700
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I give up. At this point, the best rejoinder to "Charles'" piffle is
laughter. Note: Below, where I mention that the costs involved with kosher
certification (which might add pennies per year to a families entire food
budget) would be dwarfed by spending on adds for Nilla Wafers, he
protested: "Totally irrevelant.  Are you deliberately trying to confuse
the issue?".  'nuff said.

		Dave Braun

On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:

> In 
> "D. Braun"  writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
> >
> >> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
> Dave's
> >> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
> >> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
> eternal,
> >> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth
> at
> >> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
> aware of
> >> that fact for, well, just ages.
> >
> >Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America,
>
>   See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can
> one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
> hominum attacks?
>
> > and
> >an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you
> put
> >it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first
> hand
> >knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
> Charles'
> >wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
> boiled
> >down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
> costs a
> >firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,
>
>   I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
> general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
> important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
> might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
> for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
> rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the
> "U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>   However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
> consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE
> of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
>   So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
> R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1%
> of consumers.
>   Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
> Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of
> which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as
> they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market
> bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how
> outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
> small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
> Magi!
>   Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
> companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification!
>
>  and
> >second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust
> of a
> >family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense
> of
> >the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
> commercials
> >for Nilla Wafers!!
>
>   Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue?
>
> > Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
> >Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed because
> it
> >sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an
> >antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact?
> >
> >> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not
> in
> >> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
> after
> >> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
> >> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
> TV.
> >>
> >> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that
> the
> >> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
> will
> >> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
> >>
> >> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
> >
> >And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and
> out.
> >
> >		Dave Braun
> >
>
>
>



From pgroff@txdirect.net Mon Jun 10 06:28:34 PDT 1996
Article: 42379 of alt.revisionism
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From: pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
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On Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:06:34 -0400, WAHRHEIT  wrote:

>Extra costs, whether to pay for the KOSHER TAX for the rabbis, or any
>other cost, is always passed on to the buyer. That is called
>free-enterprise capitalism.
Sorry, you lose, remember that if one should decide to use a
particular seal on their product and they pay the supporting agency of
that particular seal, it isn't a tax, but rather the cost of doing
business, nothing to do with tax.
>
>This means that non-Jews are forced to pay, even when these charges are
>hidden in the sales price.
All people that purchase a product pay the manufacturer for all costs
of bringing the product to the shelf, nothing is hidden, you could if
you were smart enough ask the company or companies in question for a
prospectus and spend some time deducing how much an item that the
company produces actually costs.

>
>According to the Canadian Globe & Mail newspaper report provided by the
>Jewish propaganda service, Revenue Canada Taxation is prosecuting those
>who try to claim the KOSHER TAX. Mind you, an accountant with a Jewish
>sounding name, who had two of his clients claim this as a tax deduction,
>claims that he told his clients not to try claiming the KOSHER TAX as a
>charitable deduction.
Good you did mention "the Canadian Globe  & Mail" which is a newspaper
that you didn't quote, another case of nothing more then deception on
the part of a rather poor manufacture of trash.
>
>In other words, people in Canada and the USA are FORCED to pay the KOSHER
>TAX in their purchase price, while not being allowed to claim it legally
>as a tax deduction.
Again fool, since when is the cost of a product considered a tax??
Never.

>Why should non-Jews be forced to subsidize the Jews?
They never have, but you sure do lie a lot.
>
>And people wonder why there is growing anti-zionism.
It isn't hard to see that what you really are talking about is your
unrequented hatred for Jews, at least you could be that honest, but 
considering your other lies from above, I shouldn't look for any
truths in your writing.

What amazes me is the sheer courage that you have, my gosh you have 
even used an assumed name, or is it one you made up to show just how
brave and couragous you really are. Are you even in this country??
Considering that Cris. com is an international provider. Poor little
antisemite, no guts, no testosterone, and now not even a brain.

>On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, ncrccjc wrote:
>
>> WAHRHEIT  wrote:
>> >You failed to answer the key points, namely why should non-Jews be forced
>> >to pay extra for their goods, just to support Jews?
>> >
>> >Secondly, the scam by some to claim these payments as charitable
>> >donations,when in fact they are merely legal extortion.
>> >
>> >Why not address the key points of the news story?
>> 
>> ncrccjc responds:
>> 
>> 1. Nobody is forced to pay "extra costs" to support Jews, this is usual
>> anti-Jewish BS. In fact the minimal cost to assess a product as kosher
>> has always been absorbed by the company. All you have to do is compare
>> a product marked kosher with one that isn't.
>> 
>> 2. Nobpody can claim these payments period. If you do you will be committing
>> tax fraud.
>> 
>> It always amazes me as to the lengths antisemites will go to spread their hateful poison.
>> 
>> 
>

_______________________________________________________________________
Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
_______________________________________________________________________
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

P. GROFF


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:37 PDT 1996
Article: 42394 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 02:16:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In 
"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>
>
>On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>
>> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
Dave's
>> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
>> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
eternal,
>> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth
at
>> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
aware of
>> that fact for, well, just ages.
>
>Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America,

  See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can
one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
hominum attacks? 

> and
>an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you
put
>it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first
hand
>knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
Charles'
>wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
boiled
>down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
costs a
>firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,

  I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the
"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
  However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE
of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
  So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1%
of consumers.
  Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of
which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as
they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market
bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how
outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
Magi! 
  Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! 
   
 and
>second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust
of a
>family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense
of
>the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
commercials
>for Nilla Wafers!!

  Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue?

> Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
>Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed because
it
>sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an
>antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact?
>
>> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not
in
>> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
after
>> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
>> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
TV.
>>
>> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that
the
>> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
will
>> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>>
>> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>
>And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and
out.
>
>		Dave Braun
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:38 PDT 1996
Article: 42395 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 01:57:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 75
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References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net>
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In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre  writes: 
>
>No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong.

  Thank you.

> Note Dave's  
>neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' 
>exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
eternal, 
>and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth
at 
>all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware
of 
>that fact for, well, just ages. 

  Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once
"exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so,
understandably, he believed it.

>The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not
in 
>France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after 
>all, the most gullible people in the world,

  Probably true, in many respects.
  And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive,"
especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed"
(i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan, etc.) 
 . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some
here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite admirably,
they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE
anti-semites or racists.
  I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to
question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00 
(+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however,
THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal
beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the purely
economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling.
  Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true American,
am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online
Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . .
they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the
imposition of the so-called "kosher tax." 
  I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of the
Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war "pacifists"
and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War seemingly
spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the
Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat
Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again
Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US
which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get
involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews
were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would
actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible chemical
and biological weapons.

> easily conned, who will 
>believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV.

>
>But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that
the 
>kosher inspection is done for FREE? 

  This is exactly what I've been asking.

Or that the food manufacturer will 
>NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? 

  Precisely.

>Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>



From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:39 PDT 1996
Article: 42398 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 9 Jun 1996 22:25 MST
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    Lots of blah blah blah below all of which begs the question: 
    Joebuck, why do you then buy the kosher food?

In article <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
>In 
>"D. Braun"  writes: 
>>
>>On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>>
>>> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
>Dave's
>>> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
>>> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
>eternal,
>>> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth
>at
>>> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
>aware of
>>> that fact for, well, just ages.
>>
>>Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America,
> 
>  See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can
>one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
>hominum attacks? 
> 
>> and
>>an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you
>put
>>it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first
>hand
>>knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
>Charles'
>>wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
>boiled
>>down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
>costs a
>>firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,
> 
>  I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
>general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
>important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
>might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
>for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
>rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the
>"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>  However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
>consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE
>of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
>  So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
>R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1%
>of consumers.
>  Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
>Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of
>which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as
>they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market
>bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how
>outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
>small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
>Magi! 
>  Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
>companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! 
>   
> and
>>second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust
>of a
>>family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense
>of
>>the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
>commercials
>>for Nilla Wafers!!
> 
>  Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue?
> 
>> Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
>>Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed because
>it
>>sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an
>>antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact?
>>
>>> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not
>in
>>> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
>after
>>> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
>>> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
>TV.
>>>
>>> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that
>the
>>> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
>will
>>> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>>>
>>> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>>
>>And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and
>out.
>>
>>		Dave Braun
>>
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:44 PDT 1996
Article: 42434 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:33:11 GMT
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In 
"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>Apparently, Charles isn't old enough to drive; on a related thread, he
has
>repeatedly posted "I know you are, but what am I"; the guy is a victim
of
>child abuse---Nazi propaganda forcefed him from a young age.  He needs
>counseling, soon.
>>		Dave braun

  How sad . . . for you. You clearly have a deep-seated emotional need
to fantasize that I grew up in some kind of "Nazi" home -- which would
come as quite a shock to my folks, who are anything BUT "Nazis"!
  The fact of the matter is that I grew up with, and still hold dear to
me, NUMEROUS Jewish friends AND even a coupla Jewish relatives -- all
of whom I sincerely love. Even used to vacation, as a kid, with my
family at Jewish hotels in the Catskills, in fact. Ever heard of The
Nevele? Kutscher's ring a bell? I can still recall ordering THIRDS of
bagels and lox every morning for a week . . . :-) 
  Really, if you stopped being so closed-minded and LISTENED to the
"other side" once in a while, rather than clinging to this idea that
you "can't give an inch," you'd go a long way towards dispelling the
evil of TRUE anti-semitism.

>On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>> In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre 
writes:
>> >
>> >No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong.
>>
>>   Thank you.
>>
>> > Note Dave's
>> >neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has
been'
>> >exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
>> eternal,
>> >and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no
truth
>> at
>> >all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
aware
>> of
>> >that fact for, well, just ages.
>>
>>   Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once
>> "exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so,
>> understandably, he believed it.
>>
>> >The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But
not
>> in
>> >France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
after
>> >all, the most gullible people in the world,
>>
>>   Probably true, in many respects.
>>   And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive,"
>> especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed"
>> (i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan,
etc.)
>>  . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some
>> here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite
admirably,
>> they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE
>> anti-semites or racists.
>>   I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to
>> question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00
>> (+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however,
>> THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal
>> beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the
purely
>> economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling.
>>   Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true
American,
>> am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online
>> Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . .
>> they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the
>> imposition of the so-called "kosher tax."
>>   I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of
the
>> Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war
"pacifists"
>> and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War
seemingly
>> spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the
>> Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat
>> Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again
>> Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US
>> which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get
>> involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews
>> were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would
>> actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible
chemical
>> and biological weapons.
>>
>> > easily conned, who will
>> >believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
TV.
>>
>> >
>> >But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe
that
>> the
>> >kosher inspection is done for FREE?
>>
>>   This is exactly what I've been asking.
>>
>> Or that the food manufacturer will
>> >NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>>
>>   Precisely.
>>
>> >Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:45 PDT 1996
Article: 42435 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:45:45 GMT
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In <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>    Lots of blah blah blah below all of which begs the question: 
>    Joebuck, why do you then buy the kosher food?

  Simple. I missed my chance to buy Israel Bonds and now I'm
guilt-ridden, so I've got to make it up somehow. 

>In article <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
>>In

>>"D. Braun"  writes: 
>>>
>>>On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
>>Dave's
>>>> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has
been'
>>>> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
>>eternal,
>>>> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no
truth
>>at
>>>> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
>>aware of
>>>> that fact for, well, just ages.
>>>
>>>Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of
America,
>> 
>>  See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How
can
>>one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
>>hominum attacks? 
>> 
>>> and
>>>an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as
you
>>put
>>>it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described
first
>>hand
>>>knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
>>Charles'
>>>wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
>>boiled
>>>down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
>>costs a
>>>firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,
>> 
>>  I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
>>general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
>>important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
>>might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
>>for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
>>rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear
the
>>"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>>  However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
>>consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL
PERCENTAGE
>>of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
>>  So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
>>R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1%
>>of consumers.
>>  Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
>>Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging
of
>>which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon
as
>>they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the
market
>>bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at
how
>>outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
>>small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
>>Magi! 
>>  Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
>>companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! 
>>   
>> and
>>>second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust
>>of a
>>>family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly
expense
>>of
>>>the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
>>commercials
>>>for Nilla Wafers!!
>> 
>>  Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the
issue?
>> 
>>> Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
>>>Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed
because
>>it
>>>sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you
an
>>>antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as
fact?
>>>
>>>> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But
not
>>in
>>>> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
>>after
>>>> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who
will
>>>> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
>>TV.
>>>>
>>>> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe
that
>>the
>>>> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
>>will
>>>> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>>>>
>>>> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>>>
>>>And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside
and
>>out.
>>>
>>>		Dave Braun
>>>
>> 
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:46 PDT 1996
Article: 42437 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:38:59 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In 
"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>I give up. At this point, the best rejoinder to "Charles'" piffle is
>laughter. Note: Below, where I mention that the costs involved with
kosher
>certification (which might add pennies per year to a families entire
food
>budget) would be dwarfed by spending on adds for Nilla Wafers, he
>protested: "Totally irrevelant.  Are you deliberately trying to
confuse
>the issue?".  'nuff said.
>
>		Dave Braun

  Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like
saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You paid
too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for
overcharging you for this pair of shoes?"

>On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>> In

>> "D. Braun"  writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>> >
>> >> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
>> Dave's
>> >> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has
been'
>> >> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
>> eternal,
>> >> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no
truth
>> at
>> >> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
>> aware of
>> >> that fact for, well, just ages.
>> >
>> >Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of
America,
>>
>>   See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How
can
>> one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
>> hominum attacks?
>>
>> > and
>> >an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as
you
>> put
>> >it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described
first
>> hand
>> >knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
>> Charles'
>> >wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
>> boiled
>> >down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
>> costs a
>> >firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,
>>
>>   I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
>> general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
>> important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
>> might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
>> for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
>> rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear
the
>> "U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>>   However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
>> consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL
PERCENTAGE
>> of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
>>   So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
>> R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of
1%
>> of consumers.
>>   Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
>> Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging
of
>> which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon
as
>> they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the
market
>> bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at
how
>> outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
>> small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
>> Magi!
>>   Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
>> companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification!
>>
>>  and
>> >second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food
caust
>> of a
>> >family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly
expense
>> of
>> >the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
>> commercials
>> >for Nilla Wafers!!
>>
>>   Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the
issue?
>>
>> > Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
>> >Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed
because
>> it
>> >sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you
an
>> >antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as
fact?
>> >
>> >> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But
not
>> in
>> >> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
>> after
>> >> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who
will
>> >> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones
on
>> TV.
>> >>
>> >> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe
that
>> the
>> >> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
>> will
>> >> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the
consumer?
>> >>
>> >> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>> >
>> >And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside
and
>> out.
>> >
>> >		Dave Braun
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>



From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:48 PDT 1996
Article: 42443 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 03:24 MST
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In article <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
> 
>  Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like
>saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You paid
>too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for
>overcharging you for this pair of shoes?"

    And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those shoes
    when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't have the
    overcharge attached?"  You haven't answered me.

    And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge?  The increased market demand
    more than makes up for the extra charge.  Can you demonstrate it really
    costs you more?"  And you haven't answered him.

    Yes, the shoes are a good analogy.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Tue Jun 11 01:33:58 PDT 1996
Article: 22350 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 03:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <4pgjr9$4n1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
>In <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
>(Danny) writes: 
>>
>>    Lots of blah blah blah below all of which begs the question: 
>>    Joebuck, why do you then buy the kosher food?
> 
>  Simple. I missed my chance to buy Israel Bonds and now I'm
>guilt-ridden, so I've got to make it up somehow. 

    Wonderful.  I hope you work out your Jewish guilt.  In the meantime it
    is nice that you acknowledge that no one else is making you buy the
    kosher food.

    [blah blah blah below deleted]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 06:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 22370 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 11 Jun 1996 06:49:57 -0700
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Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate
Last-Modified: 1996/06/10

ADL Special Edition, January 1991
A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
B'rith -- Civil Rights Division

Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate
----------------------------

The "Kosher Tax" Hoax

"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
America."

The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher
certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost
consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax"
to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda
used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting
conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the
American population desires such markings, and that even the
meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>from  non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

The Facts

Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.
Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox
Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that
products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production
processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the
respective organizations and found to be in compliance with
Jewish dietary law.

The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent.  A May 18,
1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to
General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5
millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a
representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item
cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such
labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the
market for them.

Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted
in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher
certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods
'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant,
>from  a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is
one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection
service, certifying foods and related products to be in
compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of
production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to
the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell
them, not to "the Jews."*

The Lies

The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher
tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National
States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible
Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North
Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet
titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters.
The pamphlet begins:

   "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time
   they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances,
   polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving
   turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce
   business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and
   pass the cost on to the consumer."

The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party
(NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent
opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has
functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party.

The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National
Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet,
"The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was
also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan.

"The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990
which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in
this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis
Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food
Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols
May Be Changed to Hide Swindle."

"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is
superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with
improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever
scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million
dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last"
asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish
organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will
buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this
Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION!"

Bigotry Over a Beer Label

With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing
Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans
Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American
National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon
himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of
the company.

Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to
have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a
leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United
States for many years. Following along the lines of many other
anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of
banks, the media, and the government.

In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as
someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce
to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate
use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to
terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses
(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to
promote their political power to the point where this country
has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)."

Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a
post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the
following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for
Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a
Swastika for Nordics/Odinists."

Beating the "Tax"

Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that
succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April
25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a
far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states:
"God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to
tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a
kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have
successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains
that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation)
are being carefully herded closer and closer to International
totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are
offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to
circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing."

"You Don't Have to be Jewish..."

Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a
tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and
others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher
food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990),
"Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many
as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the
supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and
Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the
Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to
be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means
higher quality food."

Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food
products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in
the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort
by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g.
taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism.

*In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at
kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general
range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the
consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more
intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the
exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection,
processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an
inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable
only to its limited market, not the general consumer.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Tue Jun 11 15:11:13 PDT 1996
Article: 42591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!cmi.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 21:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Distribution: world
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In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
>In <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
>(Danny) writes: 
>>
>> And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those shoes
>> when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't have the
>> overcharge attached?"  You haven't answered me.
>>
>> And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge?  The increased market demand
>> more than makes up for the extra charge.  Can you demonstrate it really
>> costs you more?" 
> 
> a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those
>rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries.

    Why?  If the salary, as passed on to the consumer, is a barrier then
    consumers will stop buying the product and the product managers will
    realize this and stop paying for kosher certification.  But as the cost
    of kosher certification is a small fraction of a penny per product unit
    in most cases, most every consumer (who doesn't care about the
    certification) doesn't notice and doesn't care about it.  The consumers
    keep on purchasing the product as it is not a barrier to them.  It is
    simple economics.

    Have you taken an economics class?

    Oh, and it wasn't $5,000 a day.  It was $10,000 for certification at
    this one company, and that 10k paid for two days onsite work plus all
    of the beforehand and afterwards administrative and overhead work.  Did
    you understand something different from Steve's explanation?

> b. What "increased market demand"? I think it's been conclusively
>demonstrated that those who follow kosher dietary laws are an EXTREME
>minority of consumers.
>  If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer
>population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws
>constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a
>small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified
>kosher."

    The percentage of the population that is Jewish and keeps kosher is
    extremely small.  1% might be a reasonable estimate for them.  As
    someone pointed out though, kosher certification is meaningful to many
    others as well.  It may be meaningful to Jews who don't keep kosher. 
    It may be meaningful to Muslims who use it to ensure there is no pork
    in the product.  It may be meaningful to non-Jews who perceive a
    quality threshold for kosher certified products (whether this quality
    threshold is real or not.)  When all this is added up, well over 1% of
    the population could care about the certification.

    Now, as most products complete in the market for share, if one product
    wants to differentiate itself from the competition with kosher
    certification, it could mean a large percentage increase in sales.

    Let me give you a hypothetical example to show you what I mean.  I am
    making up all of these numbers, but I hope that it helps you to see my
    point.  Lets say you start a potato chip company.  There might be a
    dozen other potato chip companies out there sharing the market.  On
    average they each have 8% of the market or so.  As you start up as the
    13th company, you advertise a lot and enter with about a 4% share of
    the market.

    Now you notice that only a few other companies bother with kosher
    certification.  You figure that while only a couple percent of the
    market care about it (lets say 2% in your city) that if you can get
    half of them to buy your chips because of kosher certification you can
    increase your market share from 4% to 5% or so.  That would be a 25%
    increase in share for you.  To increase your share by 25%, you would be
    willing to lay out significant dollars.

    Not all marketing decisions will have numbers exactly like this, but as
    you can see - in a competitive market where only some companies bother
    with kosher certification, it can have a big percentage difference on
    the amount of product sold.  If fixed cost remain stable - other than
    the cost of certification - this increase market share can contribute
    heavily toward profit.  Even if the Jewish population is quite small.

>  If this small-minority-of-a-small-minority of consumers was forced to
>subsidize the certifying rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries alone, there'd
>no doubt immediately be a huge population of "ex" kosher-following
>Jewish consumers.

    Probably.  But some free market company would quickly come along and
    figure out that by amortizing the cost among all of its customers it
    could grab up this extra market share and make more profit.

    Are you in favor or opposed to free enterprise such as this?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From t08o@unb.ca Tue Jun 11 15:11:16 PDT 1996
Article: 42601 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!usenet
From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 19:38:38 -0300
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31BCA3EE.340D@unb.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net>
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Henry "full of hot" Ayre wrote:
> 
> Americans are, after
> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV.

Or, it appears, if someone makes any outlandish statement on
Usenet.

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:17 PDT 1996
Article: 42605 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 18:13:26 GMT
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In <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>In article <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
>> 
>>  Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like
>>saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You
paid
>>too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for
>>overcharging you for this pair of shoes?"
>
>    And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those
shoes
>    when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't
have the
>    overcharge attached?"  You haven't answered me.
>
>    And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge?  The increased market
demand
>    more than makes up for the extra charge.  Can you demonstrate it
really
>    costs you more?" 

 a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those
rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries.
 b. What "increased market demand"? I think it's been conclusively
demonstrated that those who follow kosher dietary laws are an EXTREME
minority of consumers.
  If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer
population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws
constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a
small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified
kosher."
  If this small-minority-of-a-small-minority of consumers was forced to
subsidize the certifying rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries alone, there'd
no doubt immediately be a huge population of "ex" kosher-following
Jewish consumers.

 And you haven't answered him.
>
>    Yes, the shoes are a good analogy.
>
  The shoes would be an even BETTER analogy if the surcharge placed on
them was a result of demands by a tiny religious minority of a tiny
racial/religious minority to which over 99% of shoe buyers do not
belong.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 16:36:46 PDT 1996
Article: 22389 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
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Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

> a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those
>rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries.

You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed
to a fee for service, paid to an organization.

Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so
negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify.

>  If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer
>population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws
>constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a
>small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified
>kosher."

And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The
market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far
to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale
- some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't
answer those persistant questions about "what price
increase?")

See URL:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
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    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 16:36:47 PDT 1996
Article: 22391 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get
back to you.


Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate
Last-Modified: 1996/06/10

ADL Special Edition, January 1991
A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
B'rith -- Civil Rights Division

Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate
----------------------------

The "Kosher Tax" Hoax

"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
America."

The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher
certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost
consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax"
to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda
used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting
conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the
American population desires such markings, and that even the
meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>from  non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

The Facts

Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.
Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox
Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that
products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production
processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the
respective organizations and found to be in compliance with
Jewish dietary law.

The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent.  A May 18,
1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to
General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5
millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a
representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item
cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such
labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the
market for them.

Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted
in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher
certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods
'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant,
>from  a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is
one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection
service, certifying foods and related products to be in
compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of
production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to
the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell
them, not to "the Jews."*

The Lies

The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher
tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National
States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible
Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North
Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet
titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters.
The pamphlet begins:

   "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time
   they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances,
   polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving
   turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce
   business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and
   pass the cost on to the consumer."

The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party
(NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent
opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has
functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party.

The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National
Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet,
"The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was
also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan.

"The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990
which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in
this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis
Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food
Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols
May Be Changed to Hide Swindle."

"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is
superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with
improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever
scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million
dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last"
asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish
organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will
buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this
Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION!"

Bigotry Over a Beer Label

With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing
Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans
Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American
National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon
himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of
the company.

Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to
have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a
leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United
States for many years. Following along the lines of many other
anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of
banks, the media, and the government.

In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as
someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce
to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate
use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to
terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses
(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to
promote their political power to the point where this country
has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)."

Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a
post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the
following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for
Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a
Swastika for Nordics/Odinists."

Beating the "Tax"

Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that
succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April
25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a
far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states:
"God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to
tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a
kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have
successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains
that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation)
are being carefully herded closer and closer to International
totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are
offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to
circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing."

"You Don't Have to be Jewish..."

Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a
tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and
others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher
food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990),
"Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many
as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the
supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and
Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the
Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to
be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means
higher quality food."

Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food
products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in
the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort
by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g.
taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism.

*In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at
kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general
range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the
consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more
intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the
exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection,
processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an
inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable
only to its limited market, not the general consumer.


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From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 16:36:49 PDT 1996
Article: 22393 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 132
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References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>McOyVay:
>Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food
>certification.

>ECDL:
>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases
where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to
be one of them, as others have already pointed out.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your
>claim.
>
>ECDL:
>The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the
>agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996
>Page D1

You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A
fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man,
for a single day's work. Thank you.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews.
>
>ECDL:
>McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing
>the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay.

If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about
outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says
a great deal about you, and your "organization."

Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole.
For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian
economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family"
spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and
many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has
not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not
believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or
"exageration" is more than a little revealing.  

>Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians
>demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a
>symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the
>population? The cry would be loud and clear.

Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is
demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets?

>Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced'
>to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate
>America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being
>some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well
>to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. 

I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect
that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million
_new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a
thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh?

Why is that, Mr. Lockhart?

[non-secular material]

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified
>product. Document your claim.

>ECDL:
>Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is
>that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little
>symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if
>any know about 'Kosher' food Tax

Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher.
Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no
such "tax" exists.

>And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX.

Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which
increased their market share, and cost them money, which they
passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon,
Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time.

>1) Taxation:
>'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by
>a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for
>fiscal purposes....' 
>Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23
>Page 8418

Government?

>According to the definition, although the money collected is not for
>the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory
>contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax.

In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong,
so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've
got there, Mr. Lockhart.

Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products,
Mr. Lockhart.

>We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being
>funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told
>that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and
>non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is
>given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency.
>So who benefits again?

Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who
believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8
million people, Mr. Lockhart.

Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
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From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:09:07 PDT 1996
Article: 42611 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

> a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those
>rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries.

You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed
to a fee for service, paid to an organization.

Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so
negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify.

>  If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer
>population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws
>constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a
>small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified
>kosher."

And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The
market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far
to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale
- some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't
answer those persistant questions about "what price
increase?")

See URL:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
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From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:09:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get
back to you.


Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate
Last-Modified: 1996/06/10

ADL Special Edition, January 1991
A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
B'rith -- Civil Rights Division

Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate
----------------------------

The "Kosher Tax" Hoax

"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
America."

The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher
certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost
consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax"
to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda
used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting
conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the
American population desires such markings, and that even the
meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>from  non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

The Facts

Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.
Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox
Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that
products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production
processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the
respective organizations and found to be in compliance with
Jewish dietary law.

The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent.  A May 18,
1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to
General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5
millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a
representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item
cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such
labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the
market for them.

Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted
in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher
certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods
'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant,
>from  a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is
one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection
service, certifying foods and related products to be in
compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of
production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to
the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell
them, not to "the Jews."*

The Lies

The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher
tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National
States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible
Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North
Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet
titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters.
The pamphlet begins:

   "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time
   they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances,
   polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving
   turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce
   business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and
   pass the cost on to the consumer."

The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party
(NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent
opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has
functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party.

The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National
Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet,
"The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was
also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan.

"The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990
which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in
this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis
Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food
Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols
May Be Changed to Hide Swindle."

"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is
superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with
improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever
scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million
dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last"
asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish
organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will
buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this
Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION!"

Bigotry Over a Beer Label

With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing
Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans
Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American
National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon
himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of
the company.

Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to
have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a
leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United
States for many years. Following along the lines of many other
anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of
banks, the media, and the government.

In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as
someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce
to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate
use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to
terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses
(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to
promote their political power to the point where this country
has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)."

Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a
post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the
following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for
Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a
Swastika for Nordics/Odinists."

Beating the "Tax"

Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that
succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April
25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a
far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states:
"God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to
tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a
kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have
successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains
that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation)
are being carefully herded closer and closer to International
totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are
offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to
circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing."

"You Don't Have to be Jewish..."

Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a
tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and
others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher
food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990),
"Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many
as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the
supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and
Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the
Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to
be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means
higher quality food."

Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food
products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in
the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort
by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g.
taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism.

*In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at
kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general
range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the
consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more
intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the
exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection,
processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an
inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable
only to its limited market, not the general consumer.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:09:09 PDT 1996
Article: 42622 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>McOyVay:
>Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food
>certification.

>ECDL:
>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases
where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to
be one of them, as others have already pointed out.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your
>claim.
>
>ECDL:
>The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the
>agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996
>Page D1

You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A
fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man,
for a single day's work. Thank you.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews.
>
>ECDL:
>McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing
>the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay.

If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about
outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says
a great deal about you, and your "organization."

Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole.
For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian
economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family"
spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and
many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has
not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not
believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or
"exageration" is more than a little revealing.  

>Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians
>demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a
>symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the
>population? The cry would be loud and clear.

Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is
demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets?

>Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced'
>to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate
>America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being
>some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well
>to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. 

I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect
that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million
_new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a
thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh?

Why is that, Mr. Lockhart?

[non-secular material]

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified
>product. Document your claim.

>ECDL:
>Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is
>that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little
>symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if
>any know about 'Kosher' food Tax

Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher.
Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no
such "tax" exists.

>And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX.

Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which
increased their market share, and cost them money, which they
passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon,
Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time.

>1) Taxation:
>'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by
>a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for
>fiscal purposes....' 
>Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23
>Page 8418

Government?

>According to the definition, although the money collected is not for
>the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory
>contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax.

In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong,
so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've
got there, Mr. Lockhart.

Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products,
Mr. Lockhart.

>We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being
>funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told
>that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and
>non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is
>given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency.
>So who benefits again?

Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who
believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8
million people, Mr. Lockhart.

Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:24:07 PDT 1996
Article: 57697 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

> a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those
>rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries.

You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed
to a fee for service, paid to an organization.

Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so
negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify.

>  If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer
>population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws
>constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a
>small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified
>kosher."

And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The
market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far
to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale
- some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't
answer those persistant questions about "what price
increase?")

See URL:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:24:08 PDT 1996
Article: 57699 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get
back to you.


Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate
Last-Modified: 1996/06/10

ADL Special Edition, January 1991
A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
B'rith -- Civil Rights Division

Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate
----------------------------

The "Kosher Tax" Hoax

"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
America."

The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher
certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost
consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax"
to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda
used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting
conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the
American population desires such markings, and that even the
meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>from  non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

The Facts

Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.
Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox
Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that
products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production
processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the
respective organizations and found to be in compliance with
Jewish dietary law.

The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent.  A May 18,
1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to
General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5
millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a
representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item
cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such
labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the
market for them.

Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted
in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher
certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods
'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant,
>from  a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is
one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection
service, certifying foods and related products to be in
compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of
production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to
the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell
them, not to "the Jews."*

The Lies

The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher
tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National
States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible
Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North
Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet
titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters.
The pamphlet begins:

   "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time
   they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances,
   polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving
   turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce
   business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and
   pass the cost on to the consumer."

The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party
(NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent
opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has
functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party.

The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National
Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet,
"The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was
also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan.

"The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990
which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in
this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis
Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food
Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols
May Be Changed to Hide Swindle."

"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is
superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with
improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever
scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million
dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last"
asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish
organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will
buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this
Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION!"

Bigotry Over a Beer Label

With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing
Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans
Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American
National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon
himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of
the company.

Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to
have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a
leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United
States for many years. Following along the lines of many other
anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of
banks, the media, and the government.

In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as
someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce
to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate
use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to
terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses
(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to
promote their political power to the point where this country
has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)."

Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a
post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the
following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for
Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a
Swastika for Nordics/Odinists."

Beating the "Tax"

Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that
succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April
25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a
far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states:
"God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to
tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a
kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have
successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains
that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation)
are being carefully herded closer and closer to International
totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are
offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to
circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing."

"You Don't Have to be Jewish..."

Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a
tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and
others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher
food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990),
"Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many
as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the
supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and
Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the
Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to
be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means
higher quality food."

Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food
products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in
the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort
by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g.
taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism.

*In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at
kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general
range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the
consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more
intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the
exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection,
processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an
inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable
only to its limited market, not the general consumer.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:24:10 PDT 1996
Article: 57704 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>McOyVay:
>Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food
>certification.

>ECDL:
>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases
where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to
be one of them, as others have already pointed out.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your
>claim.
>
>ECDL:
>The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the
>agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996
>Page D1

You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A
fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man,
for a single day's work. Thank you.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews.
>
>ECDL:
>McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing
>the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay.

If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about
outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says
a great deal about you, and your "organization."

Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole.
For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian
economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family"
spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and
many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has
not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not
believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or
"exageration" is more than a little revealing.  

>Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians
>demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a
>symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the
>population? The cry would be loud and clear.

Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is
demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets?

>Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced'
>to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate
>America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being
>some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well
>to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. 

I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect
that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million
_new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a
thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh?

Why is that, Mr. Lockhart?

[non-secular material]

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified
>product. Document your claim.

>ECDL:
>Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is
>that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little
>symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if
>any know about 'Kosher' food Tax

Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher.
Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no
such "tax" exists.

>And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX.

Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which
increased their market share, and cost them money, which they
passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon,
Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time.

>1) Taxation:
>'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by
>a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for
>fiscal purposes....' 
>Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23
>Page 8418

Government?

>According to the definition, although the money collected is not for
>the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory
>contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax.

In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong,
so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've
got there, Mr. Lockhart.

Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products,
Mr. Lockhart.

>We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being
>funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told
>that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and
>non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is
>given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency.
>So who benefits again?

Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who
believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8
million people, Mr. Lockhart.

Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:39:38 PDT 1996
Article: 51211 of can.politics
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>McOyVay:
>Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food
>certification.

>ECDL:
>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases
where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to
be one of them, as others have already pointed out.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your
>claim.
>
>ECDL:
>The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the
>agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996
>Page D1

You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A
fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man,
for a single day's work. Thank you.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews.
>
>ECDL:
>McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing
>the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay.

If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about
outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says
a great deal about you, and your "organization."

Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole.
For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian
economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family"
spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and
many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has
not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not
believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or
"exageration" is more than a little revealing.  

>Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians
>demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a
>symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the
>population? The cry would be loud and clear.

Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is
demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets?

>Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced'
>to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate
>America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being
>some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well
>to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. 

I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect
that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million
_new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a
thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh?

Why is that, Mr. Lockhart?

[non-secular material]

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified
>product. Document your claim.

>ECDL:
>Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is
>that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little
>symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if
>any know about 'Kosher' food Tax

Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher.
Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no
such "tax" exists.

>And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX.

Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which
increased their market share, and cost them money, which they
passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon,
Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time.

>1) Taxation:
>'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by
>a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for
>fiscal purposes....' 
>Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23
>Page 8418

Government?

>According to the definition, although the money collected is not for
>the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory
>contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax.

In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong,
so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've
got there, Mr. Lockhart.

Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products,
Mr. Lockhart.

>We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being
>funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told
>that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and
>non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is
>given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency.
>So who benefits again?

Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who
believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8
million people, Mr. Lockhart.

Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From einstein@mars.superlink.net Wed Jun 12 07:52:38 PDT 1996
Article: 57944 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!earth.superlink.net!news
From: Einstein 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:24:45 -0500
Organization: Einstein's Den
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I think boycotting Kosher food is a good idea .....  I mean why should
we pay more for food .....  If somebody wants Kosher food then it is
their responsibility to pay the extra costs for that food .....

Boycott Kosher food! 




D. Braun wrote:
> 
> On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
> 
> > No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's
> > neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
> > exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal,
> > and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at
> > all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of
> > that fact for, well, just ages.
> 
> Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, and
> an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you put
> it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first hand
> knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked Charles'
> wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation boiled
> down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many costs a
> firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, and
> second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust of a
> family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense of
> the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time commercials
> for Nilla Wafers!! Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
> Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed because it
> sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an
> antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact?
> 
> > The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in
> > France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after
> > all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
> > believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV.
> >
> > But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the
> > kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will
> > NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
> >
> > Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
> 
> And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and out.
> 
>                 Dave Braun

-- 
"The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are 
permitted to remain children all our lives."
					-- Albert Einstein
mailto:einstein@mars.superlink.net
http://mars.superlink.net/einstein


From moo@midtown.net Wed Jun 12 07:52:40 PDT 1996
Article: 57950 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!ulysses.midtown.net!sl27.midtown.net!user
From: moo@midtown.net (Bryan Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 12 Jun 1996 04:54:40 GMT
Organization: Midtown Computer Services
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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In article <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

(snip)
> The "Kosher Tax" Hoax
> 
> "The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
> America."
(snip)
> The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
> fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
> in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent.  A May 18,
> 1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to
> General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5
> millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a
> representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item
> cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such
> labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the
> market for them.

I remember buying a kosher chocolate bar in San Francisco that was the
same price as a non kosher chocolate bar of the same size, despite the
fact that the non kosher bar was made in America and the kosher bar was
imported from Israel. Oh, and there was no noticeable taste difference
either.
(snip)
> "You Don't Have to be Jewish..."
> 
> Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a
> tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and
> others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher
> food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990),
> "Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many
> as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the
> supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and
> Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the
> Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to
> be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means
> higher quality food."

I am a Gentile/Goy who is seriously thinking of adopting a kosher diet. I
believe that it will be healthier, and less fattening (especially
important since I'm 80 pounds overweight right now). 
(snip)

PS. If anybody knows of any exclusively Jewish/kosher stores in the
Sacramento area email me.


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 07:52:41 PDT 1996
Article: 57958 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 12 Jun 1996 02:56:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/10
>
>ADL Special Edition, January 1991
>A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
>B'rith -- Civil Rights Division
>
>Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate
>----------------------------
>
>The "Kosher Tax" Hoax
>
>"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
>America."
>
>The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher
>certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost
>consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax"
>to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda
>used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting
>conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

  Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day
salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How
broad-minded of you to write that!
  
>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
>Jewish organizations 

  Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in
another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several
thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher
certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to
having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a
year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish
organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher
certification" extortion racket.

>while only a small segment of the
>American population desires such markings,

  Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population.
Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So
it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of
the American population demands such markings"

> and that even the
>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

  How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet
attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly
what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product
either way and how much it costs?
  With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the
inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that
name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service
information, such as,

               "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS
                PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE 
                WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE
                VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION 
                OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION     
                FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO
                WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR         
                YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL      
                AUTHORITIES."  

>The Facts
>
>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.

  Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an
"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion.

>Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox
>Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that
>products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production
>processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the
>respective organizations and found to be in compliance with
>Jewish dietary law.

  But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM
ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers
to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY
tiny minority. 

>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. 

  That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at
critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to
Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal!
That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget.

[deletia]

>"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is
>superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with
>improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever
>scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million
>dollar business today!" 
>  Another article in "The Truth At Last"
>asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish
>organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will
>buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this
>Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE
>POPULATION!"
>
>Bigotry Over a Beer Label
>
>With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing
>Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans
>Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American
>National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon
>himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of
>the company . . . 
[deletia]
 > . . . In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as
>someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce
>to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate
>use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to
>terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses
>(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to
>promote their political power to the point where this country
>has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)."
>
>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." 

  Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today
that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for
its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate.

>In a
>post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the
>following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for
>Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," . . .

  Great idea!
  Plus, the company should PAY every Protestant and Catholic sect for
the "privilege" of being able to include crosses and crucifixes on the
labels of its products, just as Jewish organizations receive literally
$millions$ (perhaps billions, cumulatively) yearly for granting
companies the "privilege" of calling their products "kosher." 
[deletia]





From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:21:26 PDT 1996
Article: 97195 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

> a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those
>rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries.

You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed
to a fee for service, paid to an organization.

Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so
negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify.

>  If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer
>population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws
>constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a
>small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified
>kosher."

And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The
market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far
to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale
- some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't
answer those persistant questions about "what price
increase?")

See URL:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:21:28 PDT 1996
Article: 97200 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get
back to you.


Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate
Last-Modified: 1996/06/10

ADL Special Edition, January 1991
A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
B'rith -- Civil Rights Division

Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate
----------------------------

The "Kosher Tax" Hoax

"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
America."

The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher
certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost
consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax"
to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda
used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting
conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the
American population desires such markings, and that even the
meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>from  non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

The Facts

Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.
Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox
Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that
products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production
processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the
respective organizations and found to be in compliance with
Jewish dietary law.

The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent.  A May 18,
1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to
General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5
millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a
representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item
cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such
labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the
market for them.

Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted
in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher
certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods
'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant,
>from  a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is
one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection
service, certifying foods and related products to be in
compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of
production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to
the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell
them, not to "the Jews."*

The Lies

The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher
tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National
States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible
Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North
Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet
titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters.
The pamphlet begins:

   "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time
   they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances,
   polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving
   turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce
   business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and
   pass the cost on to the consumer."

The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party
(NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent
opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has
functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party.

The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National
Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet,
"The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was
also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan.

"The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990
which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in
this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis
Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food
Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols
May Be Changed to Hide Swindle."

"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is
superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with
improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever
scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million
dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last"
asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish
organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will
buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this
Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION!"

Bigotry Over a Beer Label

With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing
Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans
Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American
National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon
himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of
the company.

Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to
have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a
leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United
States for many years. Following along the lines of many other
anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of
banks, the media, and the government.

In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as
someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce
to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate
use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to
terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses
(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to
promote their political power to the point where this country
has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)."

Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a
post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the
following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for
Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a
Swastika for Nordics/Odinists."

Beating the "Tax"

Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that
succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April
25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a
far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states:
"God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to
tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a
kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have
successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains
that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation)
are being carefully herded closer and closer to International
totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are
offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to
circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing."

"You Don't Have to be Jewish..."

Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a
tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and
others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher
food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990),
"Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many
as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the
supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and
Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the
Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to
be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means
higher quality food."

Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food
products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in
the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort
by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g.
taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism.

*In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at
kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general
range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the
consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more
intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the
exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection,
processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an
inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable
only to its limited market, not the general consumer.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:21:30 PDT 1996
Article: 97206 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42622 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22393 alt.conspiracy:57704 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319914 alt.politics.radical-left:97206 alt.politics.perot:48708 alt.politics.usa.republican:214100 can.politics:51211

In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, 
Joe Lockhart  wrote:

>McOyVay:
>Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food
>certification.

>ECDL:
>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1

As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases
where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to
be one of them, as others have already pointed out.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your
>claim.
>
>ECDL:
>The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the
>agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996
>Page D1

You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A
fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man,
for a single day's work. Thank you.

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews.
>
>ECDL:
>McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing
>the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay.

If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about
outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says
a great deal about you, and your "organization."

Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole.
For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian
economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family"
spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and
many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has
not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not
believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or
"exageration" is more than a little revealing.  

>Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians
>demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a
>symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the
>population? The cry would be loud and clear.

Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is
demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets?

>Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced'
>to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate
>America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being
>some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well
>to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. 

I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect
that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million
_new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a
thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh?

Why is that, Mr. Lockhart?

[non-secular material]

>McVay:
>Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified
>product. Document your claim.

>ECDL:
>Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is
>that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little
>symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if
>any know about 'Kosher' food Tax

Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher.
Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no
such "tax" exists.

>And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX.

Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which
increased their market share, and cost them money, which they
passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon,
Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time.

>1) Taxation:
>'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by
>a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for
>fiscal purposes....' 
>Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23
>Page 8418

Government?

>According to the definition, although the money collected is not for
>the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory
>contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax.

In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong,
so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've
got there, Mr. Lockhart.

Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products,
Mr. Lockhart.

>We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being
>funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told
>that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and
>non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is
>given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency.
>So who benefits again?

Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who
believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8
million people, Mr. Lockhart.

Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:22:09 PDT 1996
Article: 97439 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general
Subject: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"]
Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:01:19 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4pmm3v$qho@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:22459 alt.conspiracy:57971 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320396 alt.politics.radical-left:97439 alt.politics.perot:48773 alt.politics.usa.republican:214679 can.general:79920

In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

>In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>McVay OBC) writes: 

>>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000
>>per day as you claim.

>  You're not serious?

Yes, I am.

>  ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from
>Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There,
>it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)

No, not fact. See below.

>  Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their
>twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00
>divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated?

Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The
fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to
any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. 

That aside, you have yet to show that this payment (which I
grant - I have no reason to disbelieve the fee) increases the
product cost beyond miniscule levels - millionths of a cent.

>>You have also yet to back up your specious claim about what
>>"Canadian economists" have said.

>  True enough, insofar as I haven't provided specific citations.
>  Since you're apparently an expatriot-American living in Canada, why
>don't you do YOURSELF a favor -- seeing how you, better than I -- are
>likely have much better access to back issues of the Alberta, Canada
>publication in which these economists were quoted -- and look it up?

Which Alberta publications might those be? You made the claim,
and it is your responsibility to back it up with facts. I
believe that claim is bullshit - I don't think "Canadian
economists" have made any such studies, or any such statement.

>>Perhaps you should go the library, and educate yourself,
>>rather than repeating these untruths.

>  You're in Canada, you'd have much better access to the references.
>Got a library card?

You have yet to provide references for this claim. There is
nothing to look up. You, however, are the one who made a claim
that he cannot now back up with documented evidence - why must
others do the homework you apparently are reluctant or
unwilling to do?




-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:22:11 PDT 1996
Article: 97447 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general
Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921

In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

>In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>McVay OBC) writes: 

[citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html]

>  Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day
>salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How
>broad-minded of you to write that!

You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I,
and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your
source, but you fail to change your tune.

This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you
clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read
(I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what
you read.)

That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying
about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to
create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps
because you are an antisemite? Could that be it?

Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and
not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the
production levels of the product? Could it be because you do
not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so
small as to be near-non-existent?

Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product?

>>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
>>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
>>Jewish organizations 

>  Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in
>another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher
>certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to
>having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a
>year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish
>organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher
>certification" extortion racket.

Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your
hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products
as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly
ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased
market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e.
something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite
willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers
that would result.

>>while only a small segment of the
>>American population desires such markings,

>  Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population.
>Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So
>it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of
>the American population demands such markings"

You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and
Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and
purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that?
Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none
but a handful of Jews might benefit?

I think that is quite dishonest of you.

>> and that even the
>>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

>  How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet
>attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly
>what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product
>either way and how much it costs?

>  With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the
>inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that
>name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service
>information, such as,

>               "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS
>                PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE 
>                WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE
>                VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION 
>                OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION     
>                FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO
>                WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR         
>                YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL      
>                AUTHORITIES."  

How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS
PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO
IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to
buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and
how much is not? 

>>The Facts

>>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
>>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
>>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.

>  Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an
>"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion.

You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not
even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions.

>  But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM
>ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers
>to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY
>tiny minority. 

See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about
"economy of scale."

>>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
>>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
>>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. 

>  That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at
>critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to
>Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal!
>That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget.

How much does the United States _give_ to Israel?
How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt?
Explain that.

[snip]

>>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
>>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
>>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
>>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." 

>  Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today
>that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for
>its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate.

The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the
consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing,
major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not?

What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how
stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image
doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any.

-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:37:48 PDT 1996
Article: 42824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general
Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921

In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

>In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>McVay OBC) writes: 

[citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html]

>  Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day
>salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How
>broad-minded of you to write that!

You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I,
and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your
source, but you fail to change your tune.

This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you
clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read
(I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what
you read.)

That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying
about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to
create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps
because you are an antisemite? Could that be it?

Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and
not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the
production levels of the product? Could it be because you do
not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so
small as to be near-non-existent?

Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product?

>>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
>>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
>>Jewish organizations 

>  Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in
>another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher
>certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to
>having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a
>year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish
>organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher
>certification" extortion racket.

Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your
hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products
as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly
ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased
market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e.
something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite
willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers
that would result.

>>while only a small segment of the
>>American population desires such markings,

>  Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population.
>Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So
>it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of
>the American population demands such markings"

You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and
Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and
purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that?
Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none
but a handful of Jews might benefit?

I think that is quite dishonest of you.

>> and that even the
>>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

>  How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet
>attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly
>what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product
>either way and how much it costs?

>  With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the
>inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that
>name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service
>information, such as,

>               "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS
>                PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE 
>                WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE
>                VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION 
>                OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION     
>                FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO
>                WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR         
>                YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL      
>                AUTHORITIES."  

How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS
PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO
IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to
buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and
how much is not? 

>>The Facts

>>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
>>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
>>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.

>  Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an
>"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion.

You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not
even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions.

>  But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM
>ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers
>to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY
>tiny minority. 

See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about
"economy of scale."

>>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
>>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
>>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. 

>  That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at
>critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to
>Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal!
>That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget.

How much does the United States _give_ to Israel?
How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt?
Explain that.

[snip]

>>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
>>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
>>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
>>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." 

>  Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today
>that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for
>its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate.

The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the
consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing,
major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not?

What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how
stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image
doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any.

-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 11:13:29 PDT 1996
Article: 22459 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general
Subject: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"]
Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:01:19 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4pmm3v$qho@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
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In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

>In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>McVay OBC) writes: 

>>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000
>>per day as you claim.

>  You're not serious?

Yes, I am.

>  ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from
>Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There,
>it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)

No, not fact. See below.

>  Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their
>twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00
>divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated?

Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The
fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to
any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. 

That aside, you have yet to show that this payment (which I
grant - I have no reason to disbelieve the fee) increases the
product cost beyond miniscule levels - millionths of a cent.

>>You have also yet to back up your specious claim about what
>>"Canadian economists" have said.

>  True enough, insofar as I haven't provided specific citations.
>  Since you're apparently an expatriot-American living in Canada, why
>don't you do YOURSELF a favor -- seeing how you, better than I -- are
>likely have much better access to back issues of the Alberta, Canada
>publication in which these economists were quoted -- and look it up?

Which Alberta publications might those be? You made the claim,
and it is your responsibility to back it up with facts. I
believe that claim is bullshit - I don't think "Canadian
economists" have made any such studies, or any such statement.

>>Perhaps you should go the library, and educate yourself,
>>rather than repeating these untruths.

>  You're in Canada, you'd have much better access to the references.
>Got a library card?

You have yet to provide references for this claim. There is
nothing to look up. You, however, are the one who made a claim
that he cannot now back up with documented evidence - why must
others do the homework you apparently are reluctant or
unwilling to do?




-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 11:22:37 PDT 1996
Article: 57981 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general
Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921

In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

>In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>McVay OBC) writes: 

[citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html]

>  Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day
>salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How
>broad-minded of you to write that!

You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I,
and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your
source, but you fail to change your tune.

This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you
clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read
(I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what
you read.)

That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying
about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to
create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps
because you are an antisemite? Could that be it?

Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and
not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the
production levels of the product? Could it be because you do
not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so
small as to be near-non-existent?

Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product?

>>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
>>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
>>Jewish organizations 

>  Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in
>another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher
>certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to
>having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a
>year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish
>organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher
>certification" extortion racket.

Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your
hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products
as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly
ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased
market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e.
something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite
willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers
that would result.

>>while only a small segment of the
>>American population desires such markings,

>  Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population.
>Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So
>it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of
>the American population demands such markings"

You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and
Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and
purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that?
Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none
but a handful of Jews might benefit?

I think that is quite dishonest of you.

>> and that even the
>>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

>  How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet
>attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly
>what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product
>either way and how much it costs?

>  With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the
>inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that
>name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service
>information, such as,

>               "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS
>                PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE 
>                WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE
>                VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION 
>                OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION     
>                FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO
>                WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR         
>                YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL      
>                AUTHORITIES."  

How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS
PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO
IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to
buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and
how much is not? 

>>The Facts

>>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
>>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
>>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.

>  Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an
>"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion.

You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not
even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions.

>  But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM
>ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers
>to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY
>tiny minority. 

See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about
"economy of scale."

>>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
>>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
>>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. 

>  That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at
>critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to
>Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal!
>That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget.

How much does the United States _give_ to Israel?
How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt?
Explain that.

[snip]

>>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
>>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
>>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
>>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." 

>  Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today
>that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for
>its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate.

The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the
consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing,
major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not?

What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how
stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image
doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any.

-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 11:32:24 PDT 1996
Article: 79921 of can.general
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general
Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921

In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

>In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>McVay OBC) writes: 

[citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html]

>  Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day
>salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How
>broad-minded of you to write that!

You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I,
and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your
source, but you fail to change your tune.

This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you
clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read
(I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what
you read.)

That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying
about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to
create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps
because you are an antisemite? Could that be it?

Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and
not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the
production levels of the product? Could it be because you do
not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so
small as to be near-non-existent?

Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product?

>>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
>>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
>>Jewish organizations 

>  Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in
>another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher
>certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to
>having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a
>year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish
>organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher
>certification" extortion racket.

Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your
hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products
as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly
ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased
market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e.
something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite
willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers
that would result.

>>while only a small segment of the
>>American population desires such markings,

>  Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population.
>Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So
>it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of
>the American population demands such markings"

You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and
Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and
purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that?
Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none
but a handful of Jews might benefit?

I think that is quite dishonest of you.

>> and that even the
>>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

>  How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet
>attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly
>what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product
>either way and how much it costs?

>  With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the
>inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that
>name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service
>information, such as,

>               "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS
>                PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE 
>                WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE
>                VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION 
>                OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION     
>                FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO
>                WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR         
>                YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL      
>                AUTHORITIES."  

How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS
PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO
IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to
buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and
how much is not? 

>>The Facts

>>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
>>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
>>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.

>  Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an
>"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion.

You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not
even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions.

>  But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM
>ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers
>to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY
>tiny minority. 

See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about
"economy of scale."

>>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
>>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
>>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. 

>  That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at
>critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to
>Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal!
>That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget.

How much does the United States _give_ to Israel?
How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt?
Explain that.

[snip]

>>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
>>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
>>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
>>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." 

>  Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today
>that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for
>its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate.

The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the
consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing,
major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not?

What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how
stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image
doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any.

-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn


From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 08:45:36 PDT 1996
Article: 22601 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general
Subject: Re: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"]
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:00:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <4pqe0e$il4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pmm3v$qho@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wsx-nc1-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13  8:07:26 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:22601 alt.conspiracy:58414 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:321221 alt.politics.radical-left:97766 alt.politics.perot:48865 alt.politics.usa.republican:215572 can.general:80016

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:

>>In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>>McVay OBC) writes: 

>>>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000
>>>per day as you claim.

>>  You're not serious?

>Yes, I am.

>>  ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from
>>Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There,
>>it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)

>No, not fact. See below.

>>  Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their
>>twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00
>>divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated?

>Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The
>fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to
>any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. 

The "horse" is weighing in again. I left this thread days ago, and
just peeked in. I find Chuckie still refusing to understand simple
English. For clarity, Ken, (although I see that you already fully
understand my former statements), I'll restate. I don't think Chuckie
will get it, but I stopped caring about him last week.

The fee (note, NOT salary) is to the organization owning the kosher
mark. (I believe they are FTC registered, although I can't say for
certain.) The bid for the certification is by the organization, the
mark is granted by the organization, the check to pay is cut 'pay to
the order of' the organization, the organization dispatches rabbis to
the plant at their discretion, requests by consumers about exactly
what the mark means are routed to the organization. Not the rabbis
calling on the plant. Is that clear enough?

The organization could send one rabbi, two, ten, or one thousand, and
the fee would be $10,000, exactly as bid. It is not salary to any
individual. The main economic underpining of the fee is the
reputation, history, and credibility of the organization has with
consumers reading the mark at retail. This has been earned over many
years, and has marketplace value. Basic economic theory, backed up by
reams of studies, show that reputation has great economic value. When
companies are sold for more than book value the difference is assumed
to be the stored value of their brands and marks, and is entered on
the books as "goodwill" and depreciated over ensuing years.

 As I said before the kosher marks are EXACTLY the same as other marks
in the world of packaged goods such as the Good Housekeeping Seal of
Approval, the UL mark on electric devices, and the seal of the
American Dental Society on Crest toothpaste. All paid for after
certain hurdles are cleared by the manufacturer, all with marketplace
value to different groups of potential consumers.

If that doesn't make this "$5000 per day" crap stop my advice would be
to ignore Chuckie. Every time you respond to his non-responses he
spreads his brand of hate a little farther.

As a personal aside, I did get a chuckle out of something he said in
an earlier thread (although I kill-filed him, people keep quoting
him). It was words to the effect of: "McOyVay, Bartman, Mittleman, and
the rest of you Jews . . ." Huh. Maybe because Bartman is sort of
German? It had a double-N generations ago, but I'm a native American,
3/4 Canadian by grandparents, grew up in the South, and my religious
beliefs hover somewhere between agnosticism and atheism. I'm not
Jewish nor was my mother (Protestant childhood, free-form spiritualism
in later years.)  I respect the cultural history of the Jewish
religion, as I do all religions. It interests me. But I got into this
issue because I saw things being claimed I knew to be untrue, not
because I'm Jewish.

I spent six years serving in the Navy, including over a year living
under the Atlantic Ocean, to protect my right to believe that way,
and, in a small way, for the right of manufacturers to freely contract
with anyone they damn well please for any legal end, including kosher
certification. People like Chuckie must always be resisted, not
because he'll ever change, but because it makes the rest of us
stronger and more clear-headed in our belief that understanding and
respecting differences are one, pure thing that help make us ethical
humans.

Steve



From mcc@lusitania.watson.ibm.com Tue Jun 18 10:51:24 PDT 1996
Article: 23155 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: mcc@lusitania.watson.ibm.com (Mark Chu-Carroll)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 17 Jun 1996 14:47:24 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
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References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4plido$f7s@news.usaor.net> <4pq6jp$isj@nadine.teleport.com> <4pt6ob$lvp@liberator.concentric.net>
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In article <4pt6ob$lvp@liberator.concentric.net>,
Ronald C. Schoedel  wrote:
>kathleen@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:
>
>>I buy items with a 'K' or a 'U' on it.  So does my entire family.  I also 
>>buy non-kosher, but take comfort in knowing that the kosher food has been 
>>inspected.
>
>Inspected for what?  Is this an inspection that bears some great
>significance for anyone other than a small religious cult?

Well, as surprising as it may be to a hate-obsessed bigot like yourself,
yes, many people do consider the kashrut inspection significant.

Vegetarians consider kosher certification significant, because they
know that if it's marked kosher parve, they can be certain that it
doesn't contain any meat products.


Muslims consider it significant, because if it's kosher and it doesn't
contain beef, then it's definitely Halal.

Lots of people consider it significant on products like frankfurters,
because they know that if it's kosher, it's made from quality meat,
not beef by-products.

Some people find it significant on dairy products, because they've
heard about how milk companies ship milk in tank trucks, which haven't
necessarily been cleaned well after their last shipment of pesticides. 
They know that the Rabbi who certifies the dairy would not certify it
if they were using dirty trucks for shipment. 

All of these things make people other than religious Jews look for
products that are labelled with a kosher certification. And that makes
kosher certification a good thing for a business. Businesses
ultimately look after their bottom line - if they can sell more
products by spending some money on something like kosher
certification, and the profit from the extra sales outweighs the cost,
then they'll do it.

Think of it this way: suppose that one half of one percent of
consumers in the US actually look for kosher certification. That's 1
million, 250 thousand people.  That's a pretty large group of
people. And most business would really like to get an extra 1 million
people as customers. Especially when the majority of those extra one
million potential customers come from a demographic group that tends
to be above average in education and income. That's a *very*
attractive group of potential customers. Suppose that by spending just
$5000 a year, you could attract those customers to buy your products
on a regular basis. Would you do it?

If you're a businessman, you damn betcha you would.

Would you raise your prices and alienate your established customer base,
in order to attract these new customers? 

Hell no! You'd swallow the extra cost, and consider it to be the price
of expanding your customer base. The extra profit that you'd earn from
extra sales would outweight the cost - you'd still pull in more
profits. If you didn't, you'd cancel the extra cost.

(Which is why many companies don't get kosher certifications - the
extra cost isn't justified for their products.)

That's exactly what happens in the real world. (You know - the world
outside of your little paranoid fantasies.) Business make decisions
based on profits - and for many businesses, the extra cost of kosher
certification pays off handsomely in profits. For some it doesn't,
and so they don't get the certification.

But hey, I must be wrong, it's all a conspiracy. It's them evil
JOOOOOS out to extort money from everyone. It's not economics, or good
business practice. 

	





-- 
Mark Craig Chu-Carroll          || "I'm not dumb, 
IBM T.J. Watson Research Center || I just have a command of thoroughly useless
mcc@watson.ibm.com              || information." --- Calvin



From fresh@panix.com Fri Jun 21 10:16:01 PDT 1996
Article: 57968 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!usenet
From: fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: KOSHER FOOD
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:15:45 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4qd07l$k00@news1.panix.com>
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Reva  wrote:

>Hi, could anyone help me with this question
>How do you define a kosher food?
>Please reply,

>Thanks in advanced,
>Reva
>  
Any food product that is not from an animal is kosher as long as it is
either not processed in any way or is processed underr the supervision
of a rabbi.  This also goes for eggs and milk.  Meat must be
slaughtered in a particular way by a slaughterer trained in kosher
killing.  The knife used must be examined for nicks and the animal
(which may not be a predator or an animail w/a split hoof that does
not ruminate) must be killed instantly, with one sweep of the knife,
so that all blood vessels and nerves are cut at once.

Finally, you don't eat milk products with meat products.  The wait
between can be between 1-5 hrs. depending.

Probably alot I left out--people will fill in the blanks.

Andrew
-------------------------------------
"If they give you ruled paper,
Write the other way."
               --Juan Ramon Jimenez



From mcc@thunder.watson.ibm.com Wed Jun 26 21:35:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46172 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!thunder.watson.ibm.com!mcc
From: mcc@thunder.watson.ibm.com (Mark Chu-Carroll)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 25 Jun 1996 15:49:24 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
Lines: 155
Message-ID: <4qp1q4$ia9@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>
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In article , Max Kennedy  wrote:
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>Max Kennedy (mkennedy@iglou.com) writes:
>
>>	It isn't what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it's what
>>	comes out of him that makes him unclean.
>
>>According to Jewish religious law, both what goes in and what comes
>>out can make a person unclean.
>
>I'm not Jewish, obviously.  The above was, essentially,  said by Jesus Christ.
>
>>	If you want to be 'kosher', give food to the hungry.
>
>>What makes Mr. Kennedy think that practicing Jews do not give food to
>>the hungry?  Charity is another principle of Jewish law; so much so,
>>that even the poor are encouraged to give charity.
>
>The above, however, is mentioned in Jewish writtings SPECIFCALLY as a
>condemantion against the literalist.  Which, btw, Kosher laws fall under,
>especially to the person on this list who would even elevate it to "moral" law.
>
>But this is off the topic.  Clearly the point made earlier that Kosher law is
>not a matter of "good healthy eating, even for vegitarians", but a religious
>belief by a (non Christian) minority sect is correct.
>


>I'm not interested in a religious discussion.  I'm not jewish, and well, 
>they're not Christians.   The point has been made that the Kosher labeling 
>is for the benefit of a small and vocal minority for religious reasons, and 
>that is borne out (the vocal part especially, considering the number of posts
>currently flooding these groups!).

The problem is that repeated claim that the reason for some food
products being kosher isn't simply economics, but it caused by some
dishonest behavior on the part of Jews. Yes, Kashrut is a religious
practice, and yes, it is only a concern to a relatively small minority
of people. But the reasons why producers of food products make their
products kosher isn't because they're afraid of being accused of
antisemitism, as the original posters in this thread claim. It's
because it makes simple economic sense.

>What has not been borne out, on either side, is what this costs.  Although,
>seperate lines for kosher foods would be an added expense.

Actually, it's quite easy to see what it costs. Go to your grocery
store, and walk up the aisles. In most categories of food, there are
both kosher and non-kosher products. For each category, compare the
cost of the kosher products against the non-kosher products.

What you'll find, roughly, is the following:
- For non-meat, non-dairy products, the kosher products are exactly
  the same price as the non-kosher. In this category of food, you'll
  generally find that most products are kosher, because the cost of
  making the product kosher is quite low, and the increase in profits
  that come from expanding the market is significantly larger than
  the cost of making it kosher. (Remember that the prime responsibility
  of a company is to produce profits for its shareholders. If something
  costs $10,000, but increases the yearly profits by $50,000, then a
  company is virtually *obligated* to spend that $10,000 in order to
  earn that addition $40,000 in profits.)

- For dairy products, you'll find a lot of variation. 
  - Things like milk, butter, and cream are practically universally kosher
    in areas where there are Jews. The cost is minimal, and so it makes good
    business sense to pay the cost, and increase your sales. In areas without
    Jewish populations, these products generally aren't kosher. 

  - Yogurts vary; the custard style ones are *never* kosher, because they 
    use gelatin; of the others, many are kosher, many aren't. There's no 
    real price difference between the kosher ones and the non-kosher. 

  - For cheeses, kosher cheeses are virtually non-existant in American 
    grocery stores. And when you can find them, they're *very* expensive.
    This is because the production of cheese requires a substance called
    rennet. Most rennet comes from the intestines of cows. So any cheese
    made with beef rennet isn't kosher. But non-beef rennet is *very*
    expensive. And so most cheeses aren't kosher, because the cost of
    making it kosher outweights the increase in sales caused by expanding
    the market. So most cheeses aren't kosher. And guess what? There's
    no uproar from the Jewish community about how cheesemakers are
    antisemitic. An excellent counterexample to the original claim.

- For meat products, virtually all are non-kosher. In my grocery
 store, there's a very small freezer chest containing Empire kosher
 chicken, and a small freezer chest containing Empire and Tabachnik 
 kosher prepared foods. That's it: every other meat product in the store
 is non-kosher. Why? Because kosher meat is *much* more expensive
 than non-kosher. So the economics dictate that it's not worth the
 expense. And again, no complaint from the Jewish community.

   
>Not all private certification brings extra expense.  the UL for example is
>private, but then again, it provides actual value.  I don't see Kosher law as
>being naturally valuable in the first place; this conversation therefore could
>go on a very long time without hard statistics.

*You* think that the UL provides extra value. Personally, I don't,
because I've heard stories about how you actually get a UL tag, and I
don't trust them a bit. But that doesn't matter a bit. Other consumers
want it - and they want it enough that it makes sound economic sense
for producers to pay UL to get certified. And so it happens.

>In addition, some Christians would naturally object to any widespread 
>religious beliefs being bandied about in their society which are essentially 
>ritualistic.

If they don't like it, they don't have to buy kosher products. There
are plenty of non-kosher products available. If they want producers to
stop producing kosher products even though it makes economic sense,
screw 'em. There's no reason for a company to reduce its profits in
order to satisfy some bigot's foolish demands.

>One thing that I would like to know, however, is if it is true as someone else
>said that "iodine salt is non-kosher"?  This is dangerous if true, because
>iodine starvation causes a type of retardation.   It concerns me very much,
>especially because my family has lately been buying de-iodinized salt 
>frequently by accident, because for some reason it has suddenly become 
>popular to sell it.

That's actually just a misunderstanding.

There's a product called kosher salt, which is a misnomer. It's
kosher*ing* salt. For certain cuts of meat, people who keep kosher use
salt on the meat before cooking it to draw the blood out. A very
coarse salt works better for doing this than a fine grained table
salt. So a coarser grade of salt is used. This is marketed as "kosher
salt". The coarse-grained kosher salt does not have added iodine.

Kosher salt is widely used by good cooks, because the coarse grain is
actually better for cooking, and because non-iodized salt tastes
better. (The iodine can effect the flavor of the food, and so many
people prefer the non-iodized.)

You get *plenty* of iodine from other sources, including table
salt. There's no reason to use it in the kitchen if you like the
flavor of non-iodized coarse salt better. So it's perfectly safe
nutritionally and healthwise to cook with kosher salt. Hell, Suzanna
Foo, the owner of what's often called the best Chinese restaurant in
the US (it's in Philadelphia if you're interested, and I do believe
that it is, without a doubt, one of the best restaurants that I've
ever had the priviledge to eat in), tells people that they should
always use kosher salt when they cook, because coarse, non-iodized
salt will make the food taste better. She's sure not concerned with
keeping kosher!

	
-- 
Mark Craig Chu-Carroll          || "I'm not dumb, 
IBM T.J. Watson Research Center || I just have a command of thoroughly useless
mcc@watson.ibm.com              || information." --- Calvin




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